So who DO you agree with?

First, we do not 'inherit sin' from anyone.

Second, I believe scripture supports the premise that our nature is derived from our parents, specifically our father. And as such Jesus nature, being derived from His father was without taint or blemish.

There are threads which have been on here previously that address this, and I have partisipated in, and will try to find them. Only because it will take a fir amount of time that presently I don't have. But I will expound later if you wish.

Actually in the original it is that we are created by God, however with respect to our spirit 'returning' to God is a specific reference back to when God gave 'man' a spirit (Gen 3). Thus the context of Ecc 12:7 is about the body returning back from whence it came - not back into the woman but the earth; and the spirit back from whence it came - not back into the either parent but God who gave it originally.

The phrase "God of the spirits all men/all flesh" simply is a reference that He is God/Divine Ruler over all men, nothing more.

We are not born 'sinners' as in the guilt of sin is inherited to subsequent generations. It is much the same as stating - why does a dog act like a dog and not some other animal? It is becauase he was born with a dogs nature.
So it is with sinners. The reason we sin is because of the sin nature all men are born with. No man is born without a sin nature and this is proved because all men sin. If no man sinned he had no sin nature to begin with because it is our nature that causes us to be as we become. This is why we are given a NEW nature.

 

On the contrary, we do inherit Adam's sin -- his original sin which caused the Fall.

No, we inherited our sin nature from Adam. Adam's sin is imputed to us. We fell in him and we were born condemned in him. We were born corrupt;born condemned. We were made sinners by Adam's sin.

Yes we were. We were born corrupt, born condemned because of Adam's transgression. And that transgression involves babies. By nature = by birth. Until someone believes in the Lord Jesus Christ they are under God's condemnation.

 

Well, I agree here and have often used the same examples of the dog barking and a cat meowing. And I see what you are saying, being born with a sin nature does not make you a sinner, you must actually sin to become a sinner.

If this is so, an infant or young child is not truly a sinner until he sins. And I believe they have to be old enough to understand sin. When that is, only God knows, as each individual matures at their own rate.

And I think I agree with you on receiving our nature from our father as well, this is why Jesus was righteous and not a sinner.

Now you have to contend with Rippon.

 

Most Bible scholars that I've read believe this is saying that everyone is born "in sin." I don't have time to look them up but this is what I've read.

I don't see how the above 2 verses counter the fact we are born in sin. As far as Ps 22:10 goes, it is specifically David who is speaking. Does everyone recognize God "from my mother's belly?"

It is not a problem to say this, even considering Jesus. We've had that debate here several times and no one has changed my mind on that. Jesus was a descendant of David, his mother Mary was his natural mother. However, because Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was God, he did not inherit any sin nature. This was clearly a supernatural act and something we cannot fully understand. The incarnation is beyond the norm. But if you want to argue this point, you better start another thread as it would take us off topic.

This does not mean we are not born with a sin nature.

There are 2 theories about how the soul is formed in the womb:
1. God creates each soul as the child is conceived - this is mainly a Roman Catholic view

2. We are born with a soul since God created Adam and Eve to bear children who would be born with body/mind/soul unity

But either way, I don't see how it means we don't have a sin nature.

I'm leaving town for a few days so will not be posting here, which means silence from me is not assent or agreement or nothing else to say (though the latter might be true at some point).

 

There you go, you said "most", so it is a matter of opinion. But here is some scripture to support my position.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This verse says Rebecca had conceived so Esau and Jacob were alive at this time, but it also says they had done neither good or evil.

 

The Bible also says that children are not to be held responsible for their fathers's sin.

2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The Bible declares children innocent.

2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Hephzibah.
2 And he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, after the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

2 Kings 21:6 And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

2 Kings 24:4 And also for the innocent blood that he shed: for he filled Jerusalem with innocent blood; which the LORD would not pardon.

King Manasseh sacrificed children to idols and the Lord said he shed "innocent blood".

Psa 106:37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

So I do not see God holding children accountable as being sinners in the scriptures.

 

No it doesn't. Are you saying that they are free from sin?

The innocence referenced there does not mean that they had no sin. Adam and Eve, before the Fall were innocent, not the young folks spoken of in these verses.

Then put your specs on.

 

If I was walking down the pavement and someone shot me dead, the news media might print: They killed an innocent person. Now, I am not a child. I am old and gray, but in that instance I would be an innocent passerby.

So is it in scripture. Nothing to do with the sin nature.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I agree with the bible. As 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 explains, we are not to follow people, but God alone.

 

I thought I would correct some misspelled words.

 

He didn't ask whom you follow. He asked who got it right? You are answering a question he didn't ask, thereby avoiding the question he did ask.

Some people would answer, "(1) I don't know who got it right and (2) I don't know that anyone got it entirely right and (3) I don't care to learn the answer to either of those questions because (4) I'm not going to follow anybody anyway."

I wouldn't encourage that stance, but I cannot deny that many good people take it.

 

Not yet born so they had not committed an act, good or evil. This is irrelevant to the fact that all are born spiritually dead. One does not have to commit evil to be spiritually dead; one is born spiritually dead.