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Sola Scripture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by nate, Apr 17, 2006.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    And both are very different from the living, God-given and mandated Tradition which Jesus gave His Apostles authority to dispense.
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    On this issue we should limit the discussion to whether Tradition can supersede Scripture.

    If you say Tradition is just based on Interpretting Scripture or Interpretation itself, it is OK. Then we encounter the following question.

    1. Interpretation cannot change the Scripture!
    I don't think you are saying that Interpretation can abolish Scripture itself, do you agree? If you agree, you are agreeing to the Sola Scripture! or to Supreme Sovereignty of Scripture, right?

    2. As for the interpretation of the Bible,
    I would say you are WRONG! and you just follow the typical errancy of Roman Catholic way of interpretation.

    2-1: 1 Tim 3:2 is primarily talking about the monogamy against Polygamy, however, can we not detect that Bible doesn't prohibit the marriage of the overseers ( Bishops) ? If Bible prohibits Marriage of the Priests as Roman Catholic does today, then can Bible say that a Bishop should be a husband of one wife?

    Can we tell the Roman Catholic priests today that they can be husbands of each one's wife?

    Can any one who has one wife be a bishop of Roman Catholic today?

    Do you not understand the difference here yet?

    If you still insist that there is no problem with COMPULSORY celibacy of Roman Catholic, you are declaring your mentality has
    something wrong and you are not qualified for your job!

    2-2: Infant Baptism

    Where do you find Philippian Jailor had infants? from your imagination? That is the typical way of Roman Catholic interpretation, deriving a profound but whorish theory from the verses of Bible, as they derive the prayer to the dead.

    Mark 10: Yes, Jesus told the people to allow the children come to the Lord, and that's why many Protestant churches have the Sunday schools.
    Did Jesus ask the people to baptize the infants there? Are you claiming that one should be baptized regardless of their repentance?
    That might be why Roman Catholic drowned many Anabaptists!, ?
    Moreover children could hear the Gospel while the infants don't understand anything!

    Allowing Children to come to the Lord and have them hear the Gospel is absolutely welcome and that is what Protestant churches are doing well today ! You should distinguish it from Infant Baptism

    [ April 26, 2006, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]
     
  3. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    Like the notion of a set and definite canon which never itself appears in scripture...

    Or the idea that we should limit ourselves to "sola scriptura"...

    Ephesians 4 says the Church is here to equip us, 2 Tim 3 says the scriptures equip us. 1 Tim 3 says of the two of them that it is the Church which is the pillar and ground of the truth. The teachings of the Church - i.e. of the bishops in communion - never has nor never will contradict biblical truth.

    The bible doesn't mandate priests/bishops be married. That's just silly when you think about it. It also says his kids (plural) must be under control. By your reading of scripture, only a married man with more than one kid can be a priest/bishop. If that's the case, what happens if one of his two kids dies, or his wife passes on? Does he lose his authority?

    No.

    It DOES mandate that they can only ever have one wife. It does mandate that if they have kids they need to be under control.

    Also, there are married Catholi priests, both in the latin rite and the eastern rites. If you want to discuss celibacy we can in another post, but to deal with it briefly: the church forces celibacy on nobody.

    It DOES expect those who take vows of celibacy to keep them - but this is also very biblical! Paul himself speaks of those taking vows of celibacy then seeking to remarry and incurring condemnation. (1 Tim 5:9-16)

    Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant

    Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults, men and women.

    The OT speaks of "entire households" being circumcized - and we know this included even children 8 days old.

    The NT speaks of "entire households" being baptized - there is no reason to assume this DOESN't include children 8 days old.

    And in fact, if you look at history (which of course you wont) you'll see that there WAS a controversy in the early church about infant baptism - whether or not we still needed to wait 8 days!
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Eliyahu, Living_stone put it better than I can. I agree with you that interpretation does not change Scripture, it...er...interprets it. But, since Scripture alone does not always give us that interpretation, then we have to rely on something outside of Scripture ie: the Tradition of the Church, to give us that; therefore, whilst I accept that Scripture is supreme, it cannot stand alone and needs Tradition to interpret it
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    So Matt,
    We should all follow the "tradition" of Origen and become heretics. Even the Catholic Church finally recognized Origen as a heretic. But in his writings we do find tradition.

    Or shall we follow the "tradition" of Augustine and all become hyper-Calvinists, the same Calvinism that Calvin himself plagiarized. Be sure to allegorize all of Scripture while you are at it. Is this the tradition that we should follow. Is Augustine's interpretation right?

    One after another ECF and other early theologians have been dead wrong when it comes to the interpretation of Scripture. Early does not mean better. The Bible itself is our only authoritative guide in all matters of faith and doctrine. It alone is inspired and infallible.
    DHK
     
  6. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    The Early Church Fathers aren't infallible. But on what they agree upon they show such beliefs existing in the early church.

    And Augustine was not a hyper-calvinsit. He taught predestination is a permissable belief - jsut not Double Predestination.

    And even if he did, it woudln't matter, for alone he does not speak for the Church.

    I don't know quite what you're trying to "prove" or what case you're attempting to make? That the ECFs aren't infallible? Yeah, that's a given.

    But they sound awfully "Catholic" on most points:

    Infant Baptism
    Eucharist as Christ's flesh
    Apostolic Succession
    Obeying the Bishops
    Authority of the Church
    Etc...

    I must even conceed that many of them supported the primacy of the bishop of Rome because he was Peter's successor.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No they weren't "Catholic" or agreed on these points, and, in fact agreed on very few of them.
    Tertullian, for example, was the first one to believe in infant baptism. And that came at the end of his life when he had changed his view for about the third time in his life. Before that time he was a Montanist with a completely different view on baptism--immersion after salvation as an adult. So what part of Tertullian's life do you want to quote from? Only the part that suits you the best, right?

    The Eucharist of Christ's flesh is probably accepted by very few of the ECF. I have read the literature, and the arguments for and against. The problems are at least two fold. First we must remember that we are dealing with texts that have been translated and thus have lost some of their original meaning. Secondly you can deliberately take one meaning out of what these ECF are saying whereas they are actually saying the exact opposite. You do this with the words of Jesus. In fact they may be quoting the words of Jesus, and just because they quote the words of Jesus, you will say: "Ah, Ha! Transubstantiation, just like we believe," when all along they mean something entirely different. You read into those writings what you want to believe, not necessarily what they actually wrote.
    DHK
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This only makes your problem worse.

    #1. In Acts 17:1-11 They were able to do with just 39 books of the Bible what you claim you can not do with all 66!

    #2. You still have not answered the question in the post above - how do you avoid the Mark 7 problem GIVEN that you already admit to the problem of Tradition that contradicts scripture!
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The "first Eucharist" admitted to outside of scripture by the RCC - makes no mention of "confecting God".

    The priesthood itself is "admitted" to have "evolved over time" EVEN by RC historians themselves! They admit that the NT church leaders REFUSED to be called "priests". They also admit to the evolution of the rift dividing what "became" sacred clergy -- vs profane laity.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Right. The OT scriptures...

    That's right. And that's why the Berean's rejected sola scriptura.
    </font>[/QUOTE]WHY THE BEREANS REJECTED SOLA SCRIPTURA

    By STEVE RAY
    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

    A Catholic organization has tried to discredit an honest Baptist pastor who believes the Bible is the Word of God. He publishes a newsletter called “the Berean Call.” In it he expounds Biblical doctrine such as sola scriptura which the Catholic Church hates. Therefore they often take any unethical means to discredit such a Godly man.
    The author, Steven Ray, shows his ignorance of Biblical history. Sola Scriptura was not invented by the Protestants at all. In fact the Protestants (especially reformers such as Luther) did not use sola scriptura at all. These men were former Catholics, who hung on to the Bible study methods that they had learned as Catholics. They compared their conclusions to the conclusions made by the ECF. They used the ECF profusely in their studies. This is not an example of sola scriptura.
    Sola Scriptura is used all throughout the Bible from the times of Moses to the Apostles throughout the early churches, and even until this day. It is a biblical doctrine that has been rejected by the Catholic Church because it would usurp the authority of the Catholic Church. The Bible would become the authority instead of the magesterium and that just wouldn’t do for the Catholic Church. So the RCC either discredits Dave Hunt or the doctrine itself, defended by honest people like Dave Hunt.
    The text is a very good explanation of sola scriptura. I think you want to say that the Catholic Church wants to butcher this text to try and make it mean something that it really doesn’t say. Let us see shall we?
    Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
    Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
    Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
    Acts 17:5 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.
    Acts 17:9 And when they had taken security of Jason, and of the other, they let them go.
    --This was a common occurrence wherever Paul went. He would enter a synagogue and preach the gospel. There would be many that would believe. However, there were many that would be antagonistic to the gospel and would stir up trouble. Paul met such people in every city that he went/ Mostly these were Jusaizers who believed that keeping the Law and that Circumcision ought to be necessary as a part of salvation. But Paul put a stop to that errant type of theology immediately. Salvation was always by grace through faith.


    Yes that is what the Scripture says. Now what is your take on it?
    Let’s get the facts straight shall we. What does it really say:

    Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
    --There was a great multitude that believed. It appears that those who went after Paul were in the minority, in fact just a few rabble-rousers—specifically, “took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company.” In other words, in modern language there was a “gang” that went after Paul, not the city, not a multitude, but a small number of people that were angry at what Paul had said. The Thessalonians as a whole accepted Paul, and the gospel. A great multitude, both Jews and Gentiles believed. A few rabble-rousers did not, and followed Paul to Berea. It wasn’t “the Thessalonians,” per se. It wasn’t the city. It was a few people, some of his enemies. This happened wherever Paul went is was a common occurrence. Don’t exaggerate the facts. The Jews of Thessalonica did indeed accept what Paul had to say. Read the Scripture again. Steve Ray lies at this point. He is wrong, and seeks to deceive many.
    Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
    Now let’s look at Luke’s comment about the noble-minded Bereans: "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men" (Acts 17:10–12).[/qb][/quote]
    Always good to quote the Scripture. What is his twist on this passage? Will he tell the truth this time?
    Here Ray is ignorant of the Scriptures. Sola Scriptura has been held by the Jews (Hellenistic and otherwise) from the time of Moses onward. The appeal has always been to the Scripture as the authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. “Thus saith the Lord is mentioned 430 times. It is an appeal to the words of God (the Word of God). The Jews constantly appealed to the Law (the Word of God) in all decisions that they had to make. It was their constitution. Jesus quoted from the Word of God in the Temptation to Satan. He used it as His authority. Always was there an appeal to the Word of God as the final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine. A false prophet was judged according to the Word of God. If what was prophesied was not according to the Word of God the false prophet was to be taken out and stoned to death. Thus the appeal to the Word of God in Acts 17:11. They were to find out whether or not Paul was a false prophet, a false teacher. The Scripture was their guide. He was preaching a New Testament message which was verifiable by the Old Testament. Philip started with the Book of Isaiah and preached unto the Eunuch Jesus. The message of the gospel is in almost every book of the Old Testament.
    Ray’s problem is this:
    He errs in not knowing the Scripture neither the power of God.

    Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
    --This was the standard the Jews went by. It defines sola scriptura. If it wasn’t by the Word of God (the law and testimony) it was because there was no light in them. Ray only proves there is no light in him, by denying sola scriptura.
    Amazing! Ray is quoting here from the Koran! “The people of the book” is an oft used phrase by Mohammed in the Koran to refer to the Jews and the Christians. Why would Ray be quoting from the Koran, in a discussion of sola scriptura? Does he count the Koran as Scripture also?
    Of course the Jews had a strong oral tradition. Jesus condemned it. It wasn’t the tradition that was inspired it was the Word of God. When the divine message of the Paul lined up with the Word of God (sola scriptura) it was accepted as Scriptural. This has nothing to do with tradition.
    An example of their tradition was this:
    If one walked in front of a Rabbi and sneezed, he would be considered accursed. Much of their tradition is written in the Talmud. It is condemned by Jesus. Read Matthew chapter 23 and Mark 7:1-23.

    Mark 7:6-13 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Wrong! The great multitude accepted the Scriptures.
    If it contradicted the Torah why did “a great multitude “both Jews and Greeks” accept his message?
    The Jewish leaders as a whole rejected Christ. Why should this be hard to understand?
    Not the Jews who had become Christians (a great multitude), but only a small minority—a company, a gang, a bunch of rabble-rousers. Why does Ray not read the Bible, and get the facts straight? Fact is he doesn’t want to believe the Bible, and the Biblical teaching of sola scriptura. He would rather deliberately deceive, and deliberately defame the good name of another.
    To be continued
    DHK
     
  11. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    So scripture is only good enough just to substantiate tradition, which then takes over as the real source of all our knowledge, right?

    So the Bible alone only get people hoodwinked? This perfect parallel's the earlier statement that Arianism was caused by people reading the Bible alone.
    Once again, the OT scripture alone would lead one to reject Christ? Rather, it was actually the scriptures interpreted through a supposed "Mosaic oral tradition" (much like this "apostolic tradition" you all are pushing) that led people to reject Christ. Much of the reasoning thtrough the scriptures involved challenging these traditions, as we see with Jesus and the Pharisees. Since that tradition came first, they would have a much stronger argument.
    That there is no reason to assume these "traditions" are anything more than teachings we see int he scriptures is proven by the fact that one of them is mentioned right here in one of the texts: "keep away from any brother who is living in idleness". "living in idlenes" is what is contrasted with "the traditions". And other scriptures speak against this as well. No later "Catholic" doctrines or practices there! All "Tradition" means is that it is a principle the apostles hold, and many who people who did not get an epistle had only heard about it orally. It is not an entire separate body of teaching and practice!
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And it is NOT what the saints did in Acts 17:1-11 as they "judged the statements of Paul" by studying scripture "TO SEE IF those things were so"!

    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What has that got to do with the price of tea in China. It is a red herring. The people in Berea were Jews.
    Yes, they accepted the Word of God, and were saved—great multitudes of them. Read your Bible. A few rabble-rousers who rejected Paul’s message does not constitute that the “Thessalonians” themselves concluded that Paul’s new teaching was unbiblical. Your conclusion is wrong, for you have failed to read the whole passage. Read verse four again.
    Your unbelief in the Scriptures is astounding. The Scripture is right before your eyes and yet you fail to believe it. Let’s try your question and answer again.
    Q. Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures.
    Ans. Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
    Paul commended them because they searched the Scriptures daily. Do you not believe the Bible? Or do you just try to put your own twist on things. Ray deliberately deceives. This is obvious.
    Too bad. That is not what the Bible says. Unbelief is a serious sin.
    It doesn’t matter who you quote. Quote Shakespeare if you like. This is where sola scriptura reigns supreme. It is what the Bible says itself. They were noble because they searched the Scripture, not because of what any fool says. Believe the Bible. Unbelief is a serious sin.
    Yes, both the Thessalonians and the Bereans accepted the gospel as Paul preached it. What did Paul preached?

    1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    Paul preached the gospel (1Cor.15:3,4), which was easily verifiable through the Old Testament, and through sola scriptural.
    It is too bad Catholics don’t know the Biblical meaning of “tradition.” Yes the word “tradition” as used in 2Thes.2:15 simply means the “truth of the Word of God.” It was to be equated with divine Scripture. There was no “tradition” in the Catholic sense of the word, as defined in the Catholic encyclopaedia. Oral tradition takes centuries to develop. The Day of Pentecost took place in 33 A.D. at the very earliest. This epistle was written about 60 A.D. What kind of Christian “traditions” accumulated over a period of less than 30 years? The very idea is preposterous? Yet Catholics blindly hold to this idea.
    See the bias of Ray immediately. There are no “anti-Catholics” here, only Biblicists, those who love the Bible and want to defend it, not the magisterium and all of its anti-Biblical doctrines.
    Councils don’t mean much to us. We know where the canon of Scripture came from and the Catholics had nothing to do with it. But that is another topic for another thread. Your point here is a red herring. Sure the Thessalonians were noble as well. Multitudes trusted Christ. Paul wasn’t referring to them He was referring to that minority of rabble-rousers when he said “than the Thessalonians.” To be more clear he could have said “than the Thessalonian rabble-rousers.” Remember their were multitudes that were saved in Thessalonica.
    Yes, because they were the sole source of revelation and authority. Believe the Scriptures, not man’s petty ideas.
    They accepted his message as Scriptural once they had compared it with their own Scripture. That is sola scriptura. You almost got it right. Paul did receive direct revelation from God which eventually did become Scripture. But it did have to be in line with other Scripture. The Scripture does not contradict itself. There is no tradition here.
    The people of Thessalonica never condemned Paul’s teaching—only a small minority. Why do you insist on painting an entire city on the basis of the actions of just a few. Have you ever heard of the term “hermeneutics?” Apparently Ray hasn’t and deliberately deceives and defames.
    Quackery! Luke makes no such statement about Oral Tradition. You can’t read into Scripture that which is not there. I suppose Luke says that Paul’s message was all about the Assumption of Mary according to Ray also. :rolleyes: He preached the gospel. He preached from the Word of God. He preached the Scriptures which were compared to the Scriptures—sola scriptura. This is what it says. Why doesn’t he believe the Bible. Because the magesterium commands him not to.
    Ray has failed to demonstrate this. Acts 17:11 more than adequately demonstrates how the Bereans searched the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so, just as it says. That is sola scriptura. Ray has gone to great pains to try to say that Acts 17:11 says something else. The plain word for that is lying.
    How many times do we have to remind Ray—the Thessalonians did not reject the Word of God. That in itself makes Ray’s hypothesis fall flat on its face.
    Dave Hunt does just fine in expounding the truth of the Word of God, which the Catholic Church hates. They are bound by the man-made doctrines found in their catechism and strictly enforced by the magesterium. They have a hatred for Biblical doctrine because it goes directly against their doctrine. One cannot believe in the doctrines of the Catholic Church and be a true believer in Christ at the same time. It is an impossibility. I was already there.
    DHK
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The subject is sola scriptura. How easy it is for Catholics to turn the tables to hatred against Baptists or even Protestants when they have no arguments left. It is the sign of defeat. When you can't debate the issue any longer you come back with innuenndo, personal attack, and name-calling.
    I saw nothing in your last post about sola scriptura.
    DHK
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Let's just take the first bogus example of error claimed at your link.

    It is meandering and lacks any point at all!!

    #1. Rome was called the "city of 7 hills" OUTSIDE of the book of Revelation! ALL historians (even Catholic ones) admit this.

    #2. This is only ONE identifying mark. But the obvious fact is that the RCC ITSELF as identified ITSELF with "ROME" see it's name as an example.

    #3. RC authors and historians and others "like Malachi Martin" ALSO freely admit that the RCC WAS the GREAT super power in Europe to follow Pagan Rome. The succession is admitted to by ALL historians!!

    #4. Trying to "pretend" that the "city of 7 hills" is not being mentioned here is totally bogus EVEN in the text of the argument it is ADMITTED that pagan Rome IS identifiable as such!!

    #5. Constantine TURNED OVER the entire city as the Capital city of the Roman Empire to the Bishop of Rome when he MOVED his capital to Constantinople. This gave the Bishop of Rome supremecy over the other Bishops.

    In any case - this first example is a good one for how their case WAS NOT made against Hunt!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Which church are you talking about?

    Idol worshipping church or Idol rejecting church?

    or Goddess worshippers church or Human Hierarchy church?

    How can we discern the True church out of thousands?

    In that case should we not refer to the Bible? Doesn't Bible have the authority to discern the True church from the heretic Idol Worshipping church?

    Is Bible insufficient to teach us all the Truth for our living?

    Any interpretation of traditions are under Scripture or on top of Scripture?
     
  17. Living_stone

    Living_stone New Member

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    Idol rejecting.

    Nope.

    Bishops, Priests, and deacons are all mentioned in the NT as intricate parts of the NT Church.

    It is a most valuable tool - but it never claims to be our only one...

    The Canon of Scripture is a tradition.
     
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Bishops, Priests, and deacons are all mentioned in the NT as intricate parts of the NT Church.
    /QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Where are Priests mentioned else than 1 Pet 2:5-9? Are we all the born again believers not the priests?

    No man is on top of any man, no church is on top of any other church shown in NT.

    There is no hierarchy in the church as we read in Matt 23:8-11.
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Idol rejecting.

    Nope.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Then Roman Catholic church is disqualified to interpret the Bible Scripture, because they worship idols.

    http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/baruch.htm


    They worship goddess only by changing the name into Mary or Maria, as we see this:


    http://www.aloha.net/%7Emikesch/crown.htm
     
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