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Sole Fida / OSAS challange

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Brother Adam, Jul 14, 2003.

  1. Frank

    Frank New Member

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    Ray:
    Men often times make mistakes and errors in understanding the scriptures. This includes Mormons Jehovah's Witness and Roman Catholicism, etc. Jesus said men can and must know the turth as he has delivered in the inspired volume. John 8:32; 1248, Eph. 5:17, II Tim. 3:16,17, Jude 3.

    I accept the oral traditons of the inspired writers of the New Testament as per II Thes. 2:15. This is the precise reason I study the Bible as it contains all those oral traditions delivered by inspiration. I accept the fact that the church Christ established in the days of the Roman Kings ( Mark 9:1, Luke 3:1,2, Mat. 2:1-3) on Pentecost at Jerusalem ( Isaiah 2:1-4, Acts 2: 1-4, 17) is the pilar and ground of the truth. )I Tim. 3:15).
    I do not accept any teachings that are in conflict with the inspired traditons of the apostles as they appear in the written word of God. This means I do not accept Joseph Smith or any other so called religious leader as inspired of God. The doctrines of these men are in conflict with the static standard of truth which is the New Testament of Jesus Christ.

    Perhaps, a better question would be when are men going to set aside their councils, synods, magisteriums and simply follow the new testament of Jesus Christ? The teachings of which set us free. John 8:32. When will men be called by the new name God named i.e. Christian? ( Isaiah 62:2, Acts 11:26. When will men return to authorized new testament worship? (Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:1,2, I Cor. 11:22-27, Col. 3:16, Eph. 5:19).
     
  2. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    I'd like to see this debate happen, I don't know why Clint isn't speaking up. He posts everyday in the "Bible Reading Plan" forum, so we know he's around...
     
  3. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Duplicate post with spelling errors
     
  4. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Just a quick thought on Ezekiel 18......

    At first read, it does appear that one could possibly lose salvation, but dig deeper....

    Israel thought they were suffering for their father's sins.

    Jeremiah 31:29 "In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge."

    Ezekiel 18:2 quotes this verse, and then chastises them for using it as a very lame excuse for continuing in it's sinful condition.

    It is a picture of the principal of individual accountability.
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Also, if you don't rightly divide Ezekiel 18, you would be teaching salvation could be lost by touching your wife during her menstrual cycle.
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Well.......?

    I adressed Ezekiel 18.....

    Can you lose salvation by touching a menstrual woman ?

    The silence deafens.....
     
  7. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    I'm not quite "catching your drift" or I'd take a shot at it.
     
  8. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    On page 4 of this very thread, the OSAS haters made the uneducated claim that Ezekiel 18 proves their point. Read said chapter, and you may be enlightened. They have not rightly divided scripture, rather they have put their trust in fables and have become superstitious, as if somehow works help them keep salvation.

    Once saved is saved once. It's biblical. And they hate it. It proves the RCC has nothing to do with dispensing God's grace.
     
  9. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    I haven't been around much and that is why I haven't responded Curtis, so so much for your bravado. I'll give it a shot later. I was the one who quoted it. I do notice you left out and explanation of Luke 12. I agree it is about personal accountability. That is exactly so I don't get your drift either but I will try to figure it out.

    OSAS is a lie no matter how you slice it.
     
  10. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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  11. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Never mind. I think I know where....

    The unfaithful servant gets beat. Yup. But where does his servantude get revoked ?

    If you don't rightly divide Luke 12, then you could believe that some unfaithful sevants don't lose as much of their salvation as others. (verse 48) That's just not true.

    OSAS is not a lie. The lie is that God relies on the person to keep them saved.
     
  12. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    What does "treated like an unbeliever" mean Curtis? I'm waiting. Do unbelievers make it to heaven? Doesn't say treated like unbelievers except they go to heaven now does it?

    As for your handwaing about Ez 18, I am still not completely sure your point. I think you are saying that you have proven that it is no longer in effect in the NT. Well if you would stop dividing the word of God by traditions of man such as OSAS and Sola Scriptura (which force conclusions on you rather than let you divide the word, and nullify the word of God) you would see that there are things that were not allowed in the OT that are now. The Old law said the menstral cycle thing was bad. Eating on a mountain was bad also (of course this has to be understood in the context that in the OT sacrifieces were made in the "high places". Thus the reference is to sacrificed food to idols which is forbidden to be eaten in the NT as well. So there goes your arguement. Jesus was God and thus some of the Old Law was modified by him (Matt 5, you have heard .... but I say....). Yet he also says that "if you love me you will keep my commandments" and that he "did not come to do away with the law but to fullfill it". We still have to obey the moral law, i.e. the 10 commandments. The menstral cycle stuff is not a part of the 10 commandments (It's against #1 if you keeping track on your score card). The eating food on mountains is and in the NT in Acts 15 we are told not to eat meat sacrified to idols which is the same principle. Or are you saying that that is okay to do also?

    Blessings.
     
  13. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    " The lie is that God relies on the person to keep them saved."

    No, the lie is that God does not give us the grace in our daily lives to overcome our sin nature. The lie is that you insult the work of God in the Christian by saying "your works are as filthy rags" applies to the regenerated soul doing works out of love. Producing 30,60, 100 fold. You say these works are filthy rags. What an insult to God who produces them in the Christian for his sanctificatoin and justification.

    Ephesians 3:20
    Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,


    You say this work of God in us is of no value in our salvatoin. That it is not neccessary for ones salvatoin for God to work in us and the work to be manifest in fruit (works). Just believe. Would Moses have led the Jews accross the desert if he said I believe in you and then did nothing. How about Noah, would we be here today if Noah said, Lord the rain has begun but I didn't get started on that ark because I believe your going to do it all. (God did do it all by giving Noah the grace to know to build the ark). He gives you the grace to avoid sin and to repent if you fall but you say, I don't need your grace daily God because I'm saved.

    Doesn't Paul say "yet not I but Christ in me". You don't get the signifcance of this Curtis. It is God within us working out our salvation by his grace. It doesn't depend on us except that it requires our cooperation.

    Blessings
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    TRUE. MY Salvation 100% is by God and His Grace alone
    FALSE. IF part one above is true, then IT DOESN'T REQUIRE OUR COOPERATION, for such "cooperation" would be a work and not Grace.

    Can't have it both ways. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Hi, Dr. Bob:

    Is obeying the gospel human works? Or, is God the cause of us obeying the gospel by Grace?

    If my neighbor tells me about Jesus Christ and the whole gospel, and I decide to become a Christian, it is not my neighbor that “called me", but God. God does the "calling". My neighbor was used by God as an instrument of His grace with all my neighbor's human frailty. My neighbor may have done a work, but it was a work of God____not pure human endeavor. God was the cause of the work.

    Scripture teaches that it is God doing the work even if it looks like it is us, if what the Christian is doing is conformed to His will. It is nothing we can boast about. It is the work of Grace.

    It is “God’s work” for those who are called according to His purpose. He is the one who causes “all things to work together for good”. The gospel teaching of obedience to Baptism makes baptism God’s work.

    1 Corinthians 3:7
    So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

    It is God who is causing the Grace by using us and things working together. God uses water and a person to give us the Holy Spirit by dying with Him in Baptism and rising to a new life, making us adopted children of God and heirs of heaven. It is nothing we can boast about, it is Grace…God calling us and using “all things” to "work together" for our "good", our salvation. Salvation by Grace.


    God Bless
     
  16. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Catholics and Protestants (yes I'm including Baptists as Protestants) are never going to agree on the definition of the word 'Grace'.

    When push comes to shove, most of us have similar views on how we need to live our lives. [​IMG]
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Grace is "free unmerited favor," and in the context of God's grace, that is what it is: "God's free unmerited favor" to mankind. That is what it is. That's its definition. If you disagree with it your wrong. It is both by the dictionary and Biblical. What is your problem in defining grace?

    We are saved by grace and by grace alone. Salvation is entirely by the grace of God. Man can't do anything to merit salvation. We don't deserve it, and it is free. God freely bestows upon us his grace and love, even though we don't deserve it. What did we do to deserve the love of God? Nothing. What did we do to merit Jesus Christ coming from his home in heaven and submitting himself to a cruel death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin? We did nothing? God out of his love paid the penalty for our sins, in spite of the fact that we are rebellious sinners. That is grace. We don't deserve it.

    Rom.11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Grace and works are mutually exclusive. If it is by grace; it is all of grace. It is no more of works. If it is of works even a little bit, then it is no more of grace. This verse shows why baptism cannot be included in salvation. Baptism is a work. Salvation is by grace. If baptism is part of salvation, the salvation would no longer be of grace for works (the work of baptism) woulld be included. If it is of grace, it is ALL pf grace.
    DHK
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Forgiveness revoked -- Matt 18.

    Clear and explicit - no way out.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Luke 8



    In the Parable of the Sower we have one case of “never was saved” and 3 cases of “Saved” where “Two of them” show “Saved and then lost”. It is a case of the “Dead” barren ground - coming to life because of the Word of God – and then dying again.

    Once they come to life – “failing to endure” or failing to “perservere” in that state can not be worked into a “failure to remain in a less lost state means that you are now really really lost”. And of course – the dead can not “of themselves” – “come to life”.

    .
    Parable of the Sower

    4 When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable:
    5 "The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up.


    Christ shows that these are they who never were saved. A case of the dead that never came to life.


    11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
    12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.


    Clearly it is a reference to “salvation” and the Gospel. The highest theme in the Bible.



    6 "Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture.


    This dead and barren ground – springs to life due to the word of God but then withered “away” – dies. They “fall away” says Christ. (As we find in Gal 5 – “Fallen from Grace”).

    Even though they “received the Word” – and John tells us that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”. They received Christ, the dead came to life, but then “withered away”. You can not “wither away” from the dead. You must be alive to die. The fault is not that they were alive – but that they had no moisture and withered away AFTER coming to life. A form (as Christ points out in the end) of failing to “persevere”.


    13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away


    The seed that falls among the thorns – is “choke Out”. Though – again – the dead barren ground “comes to life”.


    7 "Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out.


    These “hear the Word”, come to life and “Grow up” but then the Life that they have is “choked out” by worldly concerns. They bear no fruit. In John 15 Christ points out that “every branch in Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire”.


    14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.


    In the case of the “good ground” – we see the “same growth” the same springing to life and growth But then it ALSO bears the Fruit. And as Matt 7 points out “by their fruit you shall know them”. And John 15 states that it is the purpose of God to bring out that fruit.

    (Which is as Galations 5 points out – the fruit of the Spirit given in increasing measure to all who are saved).

    Christ’s summary point is that this is a case of “perseverance”.


    8 "Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great." As He said these things, He would call out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."



    15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Romans 11


    In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.


    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.


    Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost - he does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved.
    Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
    imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
    16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.


    Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

    Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
    Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

    Rom 11:
    19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.


    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.


    Rom 11: 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who
    fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His
    kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


    They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.


    Rom11:23And they also,
    if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God
    is able to graft them in again.


    God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.


    " they ALL drank from the SAME SPIRITUAL PETRA which FOLLOWED them
    that PETRA was CHRIST" 1Cor 10:4


    Heb 4:1-2 We have had the Gospel preached to US just as They also

    And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
    Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
    called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

    The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.


    24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted
    contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are
    the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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