Featured Some common Ground between Camps

We know that the saints are saved by grace through faith according to Eph 2:8-10 and we know that we cannot add stuff to the Bible to make it fit OSAS.

So then when we get OSAS debunking texts such as -


Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

---

We simply notice and accept "the details" rather than skimming over what does not please OSAS.

To be severed from Christ "is a bad thing" according to Gal 5:4 and John 15.

The saints have no other way to exist - but "joined to Christ" - for there is no salvation apart from Christ.

The lost do not stand by grace, stand by faith, live connected to Christ.

So to be severed from Christ, to be fallen from Grace, to be cut off after standing by faith alone - is to lose salvation.


Can we then "imagine" that those joined to Christ and then severed from Christ - were not joined by faith - but by some "other" Gospel?


Not according to Paul.


[FONT=&quot]Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, andyou stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off


[/FONT]
in Christ,

Bob

 

Don't you ever get tired of jerking these texts out of their context??? They have been interpreted according to their context and in their contextual applications they contradict your anti-OSAS position.

 

As usual - you object to the mere quote of these texts.

you are at war with the text itself. I cannot be blamed for that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be and Paul also gives us a clue about the reality of the saved saints - being severed from Christ should they fail to continue in the Gospel -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[FONT=&quot]
And of course let's not avoid Paul's example of being severed from Christ that we find in Romans 11


Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off[/FONT]

There is no "back door" out of the obvious meaning of these texts.

Being severed from Christ - and fallen from Grace and burned in the fire - is the "lost condition" not some odd form of "being saved no matter what the Bible says".

Anyone can eisegete to the point of ignoring anything in the text that does not please OSAS.

Salvation is to "Whosoever will" - we must freely choose it - and once that is accepted - then also being saved - we can freely turn from that course.

in Christ,

Bob

 

By straining the text beyond what it says - the OSAS group find themselves in a corner.

These texts "should not exist" if OSAS were even remotely true.

The sequence IN the John 15 is not what the OSAS-at-all-costs man-made tradition would have it be and Paul also gives us a clue about the reality of the saved saints - being severed from Christ should they fail to continue in the Gospel -

Gal 5 (NASB)
. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (NKJV)
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (KJV)
Severed from Christ -- is lost.

Is the ending state - after being joined to Christ and then severed.

Which leads to being burned in the fire - no longer a living branch at all.

John 15:
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered;
and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire,
and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

[FONT=&quot]
And of course let's not avoid Paul's example of being severed from Christ that we find in Romans 11


Rom 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off[/FONT]



There is no "back door" out of the obvious meaning of these texts.

Being severed from Christ - and fallen from Grace and burned in the fire - is the "lost condition" not some odd form of "being saved no matter what the Bible says".

Anyone can eisegete to the point of ignoring anything in the text that does not please OSAS.

Salvation is to "Whosoever will" - we must freely choose it - and once that is accepted - then also being saved - we can freely turn from that course.

in Christ,

 

Those who cling to OSAS yet deny perseverance (so that they can actually have eternal assurance) would do well to pay attention to the Word of God here

===============

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it


Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

==============================================

By contrast those who cling to OSAS and also accept these texts - have no assurance at all - since they are forced to retro-delete today's assurance when it turns out that ten years from today - they fail to persevere.

The only valid solution is the Arminian one found in the Bible - Free will. Full assurance today but then fully accepting the Bible requirement to persevere firm unto the end. And if in your free will you do not choose to do so -

Then you who are joined to Christ - will then be severed from Christ. Gal 5:4

Then you who are under Grace - will then be fallen from Grace. Gal 5:4

Then you who are grafted in - will then be cut off Romans 11

This is as easy as it gets - and yet to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS seems to enticing that some will turn a blind eye to even the plainest statements of Scripture against it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are plainly interpreting and teaching that salvation is ultimately obtained by perserving in good works rather than by grace because if salvation can be lost by bad works it must be ultimately obtained by good works. There are only two possible options (1) Grace or (2) works - Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9 and they cannot be mixed.

Works are defined in Romans 4 in direct relationship to Abraham who was justified by faith without works PRIOR to circumcision and PRIOR to Judaism and 430 years prior to the Mosaic Law covenant.

Hence, works do not refer to becoming a Jew through circumcision. Works do not refer to the Old Mosaic Covenant. Works refer to the personal obedience of Abraham as an uncircumcised GENTILE to what is right by conscience or any other revelation of truth.

 

You only say that because you don't like the texts I am posting (and will post again) and you choose of your own free will to cling to the man-made tradition of OSAS no matter what the Bible says to the contrary.

What is "odd" here is that there are a lot of Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance - so "odd" that you oppose those Calvinists.

But not so "odd" that you avoided the point in my prior post proving that Calvinists that DO accept the Bible doctrine on perseverance have LESS assurance (or none) as compared to Arminans - since those Calvinists cannot see the future.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You sound like John Kerry in the 2004 election. To paraphrase, "Christians were saved before they weren't."