Some quotes for Catholics to ponder...

Hold on! You can't have it both ways: a post or two ago you said that Christianity is not about head knowledge; now you're saying it's about correct teaching. Which is it?

 

The reason the catholic church believes that Baptism equates with being born again is really simple.
1)The kingdom of God is in existance right now.
2) Being a Jew is not entry into the Kindom of God
3) doing works of the law will not gain entry into the kindom of God
4) Circumcision has been done away with and is in a way replaced by baptism.
5) Baptism gains entry into the nationhood of the Kingdom of God
6) there are certain rights,privilages and responsibilities upon citizenship.
7) a new nature given upon citizenship through baptism.
8) Temporal and spiritual life are not seperate but work together in this kingdom of God.

Their paradigm is different from ours.

 

There's also the 'plain reading' of John 3:5 and I Peter 3:21

 

You also forget the plain reading of Acts 2:37-38.

But then I always wonder why this is ignored in Acts 16:31

 

Or indeed Mark 16:16.

 

Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

It is not about simple head knowledge; it is about correct doctrine and the application thereof. John 3:5 says nothing about baptism. It uses the word "water." The word "water" is used 367 times in the Bible. Does it refer to baptism every time it is used? Of course not. Neither does it refer to baptism here. The context is entirely against that rendering. Nicodemus would not be thinking of baptism at all.

The New Birth is speaking of a relationship. If one doesn't have a relationship with Christ they are condemned forever to Hell. Those are the blunt facts. Look further in John 3:

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does baptism do? It gets you wet, and that is all.
What does belief in Christ do? It obtains for you eternal life and establishes a relationship with Jesus Christ. Baptism does not save and never will. Faith alone in Christ alone saves.

 

If the paradigm is different it sends people to hell; it is not biblical; Their paradigm is of works, and not of grace by faith in Christ. Those are the blunt facts. Baptism doesn't save. Only Christ can save.

 

If the members here are so sure of their theological positions and are so inlcined to defend their faith, then why the dearth of Catholic members? Why are the BB adminsitrators denying them access?

 

Those who post in this forum don't follow the teachings of the Holy Spirit. Look back and see the Scripture that I posted. They follow the magesterium, their catechism, their creed, their church, but not the Bible. The teachings of the Holy Spirit are found in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit leads through his Word, not through any other authority. Thus the doctrine of sola scriptura is a hated doctrine among the RCC.

 

I think assuming the RCC's consider Sola Scriptura as "hated" doctrine is a bit terse and perhaps over reaching.

 

One doesn't know doctrine apart from 'head knowledge'.

And you know this how, exactly?

Correct. And how does one have that relationship? Look further in John 3:

You've only quoted half the story and ignored the earlier verses posted by me and TS which state the salvific effects of baptism. You can't just excise verses from the Bible or 'explain them away' with smoke and mirrors like that!

 

You post in this forum! And I was referring to Baptists, if you look.

 

I'm not entirely in agreement with you matt as I pointed out acts 16 excludes as a means of salvation but mentions it later as a result of belief.

Though admitedly they seem to go hand in hand throughout scripture. However, is baptism the result of and an expression of belief? Which is salvific? The belief or the baptism. I know what a Catholic would say but lets say the Jailor died just before his baptism?

 

Thanks for the info. I do know the "challenge" presented by the athiests, as I sometimes find myself "apologizing" on the religion boards of Amazon, which are havens for skeptics, naturalists, agnostics and militant athiests. I have not encountered Catholics who sought to " offend" me in anyway.