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Some think government bears the sword in vain

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by Scott Downey, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    I am quoting from a closed thread as I don't like the response here as it is unscriptural.

    Scott Downey said: ↑
    Taking him out so far has been to create a safer world, obvious to all the guy was a planner of death to them that oppose the Iranian Mullahs. It was a proper US government action sanctioned by God in the secular world. It is not though in our faith to individually be killing anyone as our fight is not against flesh and blood, that is the place of government approved of by God.
    12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


    How ironic that you quoted the Apostle Paul right after a comment that is quite contrary to his message.
    If we are truly in the right in violating international law in assassinating bad guys (and he was) then let's also put the crosshairs on Kim in NK, Putin, and ... hey, let's get a list started.
    Tom Riggle


    This comment to mine own is way out of line with what Paul also wrote about the secular government. Not contrary at all what I wrote.
    Can you not distinguish between secular governing authorities with authority given to them by God versus our individual faith given to us by God in how things are in the world?
    And Romans 13 also authorizes christians who are in the military and police to use capital force in doing their jobs. Yes, we should take out Kim and Iranian leaders and Isis who are overtly obviously evil rulers, no Putin is not an evil ruler. Trump is not an evil ruler. Yes, make up your list. I suppose Hitler should not have been attacked either then?

    Even this roman government had an evil ruler at the top, yet Paul tells us the government of their time had authority from God to punish evil doers. How much more so our own government today then.
    It is one thing as an individual christian to turn the other cheek and another thing for a government to exact judgement on others, which government does not bear the sword in vain but is authorized by God to inflict punishment on evil doers. Following the bad reasoning given in the response to my own is against God and is lawlessness and anarchy.

    Romans 13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Submit to Government
    13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
     
    #1 Scott Downey, Jan 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Nowhere does God say we must endure bad rulers or bad laws without trying to change them. We can vote out most of our rulers, or call a referendum on a bad law.

    The Jews who wanted Jesus dead swayed Pilate by threatening to go to Caesar & tell him Pilate was no friend of Caesar's as he let an anarchist live, if he didn't crucify Jesus. (As if Barabbas, a real anarchist & Zealot, wasn't a foe of the Romans!) But the squeaky wheel got the grease.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not sure what the point of this thread is? Does the government (as provided for in scripture) have the authority to use lethal force to protect the governed? Yes.

    Was it biblically legitimate to kill the Iranian General because we thought he was going to attempt to kill Americans and our allies? Or because we thought he was responsible for the killing of many Americans and our allies? Our elected leaders said yes.
     
  4. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    Highlighted in green is the contrary opinion in my OP, which is unscriptural.
    The secular government has the God given right to have taken out this terrorist to protect it's citizens to which some people object. And really there are religious groups that also do object to such a thing, everyone can have an opinion about the use of governmental force, and that does not mean the opinion is correct. Since the original thread ran out of time, I could say nothing to respond, so I started this one.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Since the governments of biblical times were not democracies, the bible gives scant direction as to our voting choices. One person might believe a governmental action was consistent with God's will, whereas another might believe the action went beyond the necessity of God's revealed will.
     
  6. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Governments of this world do what they consider necessary to further their ambitions. Jesus created a kingdom not of this world. As Christians, our allegiance should be to the Kingdom of God. We should speak out on the issues but should never identify our country or our political party with God. Israel used to be God's favored people but they lost that distinction by repeatedly disobeying Him. God's favorite people are now inhabitants of the Kingdom of God and true Christians.
     
  7. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Active Member

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    1 Timothy 2:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
    1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, ...

    God placed government over the lives of people to create order, to reward good behavior and to punish bad behavior.
    One reason is so that the believers can live quiet, peaceful and godly type lives. So then for the benefit particularly of His people while indirectly for the benefit of all living in that country, God did that which Paul tells us about in Romans 13 regarding government.

    Law and order is of God, and lawlessness is of the devil, who is the lawless one, not of God.
    Lawless ones do not submit to the authority God has placed over them.

    Romans 13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Submit to Government
    1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
     
  8. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Another totally false post by FTW.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God can and still does use nations and their leaders to execute his plans, as he raised up a trump for times such as this!
     
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  10. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    OR, Trump is an Antichrist. He blasphemes by calling himself "The Chosen One" and the "Second Coming of God." He perverts Christianity by misrepresenting himself as a Christian and in so0 doing has tremendously hurt the Church (mainly the SBC).
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    when has he ever proclaimed himself to be ther Messiah, or the chosen one though? You can see his spiritual state before God, do you have special glasses for that? president Obama did way more to hurt the cause of Christ!
     
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  12. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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  13. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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  14. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    I'm not going to respond to purely hateful personal attacks.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Guess that means that you are not watching any of that Sham Dem Impeachment then?
     
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  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    No one attacked you. I just said that you posted garbage attacking Trump personally. And you did. You posted garbage from Jeff Bezos at Amazon. You hate Trump. And Bezos hates Trump.
     
    #16 church mouse guy, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
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  17. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    FTW likes to make false accusations against Trump and the people who stand up for Trump.
     
  18. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Not only.
    "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will," Proverbs 21:1. And we are called to pray for all those in authority.

    A ruler does not have to be aware of all that goes into his decisions. God has his purposes that make use of everything happening.
     
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  19. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Yes. God used the Pharoah, Caesar and the rulers of Babylon and Persia to bring about his will. They conquered Israel and put them in bondage.
    In a similar way God could be using Trump to b ring down America.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nope, as president Obama was himself doing that role, I would tend to see Trump more in the lines of someone raised up by God to try to rally the side of light to now wake up and dare to take on forces of darkness!
     
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