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something truly frightening learned at VBS

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nodak, Jul 2, 2010.

  1. Eagle

    Eagle Member

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    Have a look at my tag line. Seems to me like you ought to care how many "gainsayers" you both "exhort" and "convince."
     
  2. Txspurgeon

    Txspurgeon New Member

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    It bothers me that people don't have a deeper desire for better,deeper theology. I wonder how they are comfortable with some of the nonsense that goes on in some of the SBC churches. The pragmatism is rediculous. For the life of me, I can't understand why pastors fret over "following up converts" when they are no where to be found. DUH!! A repeating of a prayer isnt gonna cut it, nor is it scriptural. WE DONT SAVE OURSELVES!

    I am only one man, and there are scores of brothers and sisters who believe the same way I do. But the fact is, there will be tons of "Finneyists" out there who will TOTALLY throw out what I and others and men like Al Mohler, etc. have to say. Easy-believism and the rejection of Lordship salvation is real. The unregenerate WILL NOT REPENT. There are those who completely shut down when they hear words like "election"; "predestination"; "sovereignty";"obedience" etc. The first thing they do is start yelling "CALVINIST!!!"..or.."legalist"..I can promise you most of them have no clue about the doctrines of grace. They dont understand how it works to begin with. When the "elect" are spoken of, they automatically start feeling excluded. Why is that? The non-elect are those who ultimately reject following Christ. If one is even worried about being "elected" then it is probably because they already are. Wouldn't it be better to know the biblical doctrine of election and bask in the knowledge that God had plans of mercy towards YOU before He created time and space? The idea that God didn't love you until "you did something" like a prayer..is a cold, unbiblical doctrine. Also, the idea that God predestined you by looking down the corridors of time to see what you would do is COMPLETELY destroyed by Romans 9. John 6:44 is clear about God's "drawing" you to Christ. 6:37 is clear about what you WILL do, and how your assurance will be secure. Romans 9 is the best chapter in the bible that speaks of election and the sovereignty of God. Here is a link to a sermon by John MacArthur on this very thing, and it also talks about free will and where it fits in.

    http://www.gty.org/AudioPlayer/Sermons/90-399

    Easy believism is a cancer in the SBC that needs to be dealt with. It comes from "sinners prayers" and "shallow theology". HOW SALVATION WORKS is a VERY important doctrine. WHO GETS THE GLORY FOR IT is important as well. Many who think they are saved, because they were told they were, by "repeating" some prayer may in fact still be lost. Now, you may be thinking.."Well I said a sinners prayer"..well you might be saved, but it was in spite of the prayer you said. It was because of the regeneration of the Holy Spirit that drew you to repentance and faith.... not your "prayer". God had to "draw" you to Christ, and change your hardened heart into following Him. You might have have been "drawn" to pray, but that was after the fact, not the reason for it. HE DID IT..Not YOU.

    This "flu shot" mentality will have unregenerate souls ALL OVER IT! It is EASY!! Salvation comes with a price. It is the price of repentance, of "turning from sin towards Christ". It is a daily battle of repentance from sin. Literal spiritual warfare! Every day for the rest of your life. Christians will continue to sin until their glorification, but it gradually gets less and less. Many professing believers out there show no change in heart. They dont even have a full grasp of what sinning against God really means. They don't even understand repentance. All they are taught is "I'm covered".

    This WHOLE PROBLEM stems from "Finneyism" (which is the "secure salvation" form of Arminianism). "Easy Believism" is another term for it. The SBC needs to dig deeper, and adopt the biblical doctrine of Lordship salvation. Like I said before, the unregenerate will RUN, and the regenerate will REJOICE! The SBC needs to strengthen their gospel presentation to make believers, not numbers. Being a Christian isn't an easy life, Jesus plainly said it wouldn't. For someone to think they can continue to live as they were and still be "saved" is a lie and the truth is not in them.
     
    #62 Txspurgeon, Jul 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2010
  3. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    I was seeking salvation a full two years before the Lord saved me--maybe a little longer--hard to remember exactly when its been 43 years. During those two years pastors and others assured me I was saved as I had asked to be saved. But was I? NO! And I knew it. Just as I knew when He saved me.

    I am not perfect and sinless, but I do abhore the sin that trips me up, repent, seek cleansing, and continue the fight. Before I was saved I would have said "what sin?"

    And that is exactly what goes on now. The previous SBC church where I was a member was very adamant that we never use the word sin. We were taught folks no longer see themselves as sinners, so to "win them to the Lord" we must simply show them how God has a better life planned for them, and lead them to faith from there.

    WELL, HOW, PRAY TELL?

    Our self esteem culture teaches people that they need to do things "their way." Even if it doesn't work and is destroying you, be "true to yourself." You are NOT WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING, EVER.

    Guess what. We can be wrong. We are often wrong. There is sin. It will cost us fearfully. And there is a cure.

    Repentance and belief in Jesus to save us.

    Not our good works. Not our having been true to ourselves.

    He told us He came to save sinners.

    If you don't think you are one, how can you come to Him for salvation?

    So why do we water down the message just to be popular? I fear our trying to explain that when we stand before the Lord.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The older I get the less I listen to what people say and the more I see what they do. Young people are full of ideas and philosophies but the older they get the less they believe what people say and the more they believe what they do.

    So I do not care much what people say but rather what they do. In the gospels Jesus spent a lot more time doing that teaching.
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    This has to be one of the more gross, but not new, false dichotomies I have seen. The Holy Scriptures are our only infallible guide for both belief and practice. Nor can it be said to pit our Savior's deeds against his deeds, nor place more importance upon the one over the other.

    God chose the Apostle Paul and moved Him according to His will to write many letters to the churches which are infallible Scripture. God in these letters so often begins doctrinally, and ends practically, the latter flowing from the former. What Txspurgeon wrote then should be taken to heart. The Finneyism he speaks of, the practice thereof, flows from a false and erroneous teaching.

    We always must begin with the doctrinal and theological and move to the practical as the fruit of the teaching of Christ.
     
  6. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    This is a frightening story of your former experience!

    Not telling people of their sins is like a doctor prescribing amputation of an arm or a leg (for cancer) and not telling the patient why. He might say: "Oh...trust me, it's a much better way of life to live with one arm." We do the same (actually worse) when we refuse to tell sinners of sin.

    I guess this is what happens when people (pastors in particular) are much more concerned with superficial numbers. Pastors who worship numbers will, I fear, do almost anything to get another notch. This is what happens when people want to make "converts" rather than "disciples."

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  7. Txspurgeon

    Txspurgeon New Member

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    Very well said Reformed! And thank you.
     
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I never said any such thing as you care to insinuate. Try not to read your own thoughts into what I actually wrote earlier. Count the number of passages and words in the gospels devoted to what Jesus did compared to what He taught and you will see that you will have to eat your own words.

    Following Jesus is not just preaching what He taught but also doing what He did. Doing what He did should occupy much more time, that is unless you talk all the time.

    If you care to apply Mt. 28:19, 20 you will find that will give you a lifetime of application.
     
  9. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I am always happy to be wrong. But I think your in error in your understanding of the Scriptures. So your instruction and rebuke to me is to base my life as a Christian on the number of deeds vs. teachings of Jesus? Really?

    Those of us who know our Bibles and the Lord Jesus know better. We are not so easily removed from the doctrines of Christ.
     
  10. Eagle

    Eagle Member

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    I second the motion Reformed Baptist, well said, here, here!
     
  11. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Love it (esp. the bolded part). This view helps to head off what I see as two extremes--those who claim the invitation is wrong-headed, evil, and has no place anywhere; and the other, which has made it a sacrament.

    Nicely put.
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    When did I ever even remotely suggest that anyone remove Jesus' teaching from his doing? You are making a wrong assumption. All I ever stated is that if you read the gospels you will find that there are many more passages covering what he did than what he taught. That is what I have been doing recently to see what Jesus did. I have been recording each passage of scripture showing what Jesus did.

    If we are to focus on Jesus what else do we have to go by other than scripture?

    John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

    How does what Jesus did in Jn 21:25 compare to what Jesus taught?
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Originally Posted by The Archangel [​IMG]
    Surely, the invitation is a vehicle for inviting those with questions to come up and receive answers, counseling, etc. But, an invitation is only a vehicle, it is not a destination.

    It is not the invitation which gives me a problem, it is the abuse of the invitation. Now think about it. We have made "walking the aisle" the equivalent of being saved. In fact, I've read testimonies from people who described their salvation experience exactly that way--"I walked the aisle..."

    The very language we use promotes that view. Come to Christ. Where? Down here at the front.

    Or, come to the altar. Uh, where is that in a Baptist church? Uh, well, it's down here at the front, but it's not really an altar, it's symbolic, but to make the symbolism work, you have to come down here to the front. You can't say the Sinner's Prayer if you're back there, and I'm down here. What's that, you don't know the Sinner's prayer. Don't worry, you can just repeat after me.

    Or, I want you to step out on faith. Step out where, preacher? Uh, down the aisle to where I am. Well, can't I get saved right here in the pew? Well, sure, but Jesus says confess me before men. But preacher, won't I be doing that when I'm baptized? Why can't I just meet you after the service to get my questions answered? Well, you can, I guess, but if the building falls in on you before then, you'll die and go to hell because you waited. Now quit arguing and get up out of that seat. Get down here so you can get saved.

    Hold it, wait. We haven't started the invitation hymn. You can't come until the musicians start playing and the congregation starts singing. Silence is way too awkward. Okay, you can walk the aisle, now. And while you're coming, I'll be exhorting people to come to the altar to pray for loved ones, or for themselves, or something, anything.

    If nobody movies, then I'll ask for re-dedications. If that doesn't work, I can always fall back on having people go to someone and tell them what they've meant to you in your Christian walk. And be sure to hug their neck. Oh, I forgot one. Wanna move your letter? C'mon down.

    Okay, enough of this.

    Have you ever seen any of this done? Have you ever done any of this? Can you say, uh, manipulation.

    It is serious business to call men and women to repentance. It is so serious that we should bend over backwards to make sure that the call is clear and unmistakable--and scriptural. And don't forget, the Holy Spirit is not exactly a potted plant in this process. Can you say conviction, illumination, drawing?
     
    #73 Tom Butler, Jul 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2010
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I whole-heartedly agree. I know of churches and pastors (for whom I have an almost idolatrous respect) who categorically reject the invitation. My opinion is that a categorical rejection of the invitation is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    However, I think you are correct that the invitation has been so abused that it may be hopelessly misunderstood--even if it is done right.

    By the way, our church doesn't use an end-of-service invitation. I exhort people to repent and believe and I invite them to come find me (or another elder) after the serve. We don't have a formal invitation, but we do invite (exhort) people to repent and believe.

    I would prefer not to use a formal invitation...ever (because of the aforementioned abuse). However, To categorically reject, as I mentioned, is probably going too far.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Things are abused by abusers and manipulators. Any tool in the hands of an abuser will not last or hold up.
     
  16. Txspurgeon

    Txspurgeon New Member

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    Well this "invitational" abuse has held up for quite a long time. Hopefully I will live long enough to see the end of this sillyness.

    Our pastor tells people at the end of the service that they can come down front after the service and talk to some men in a private room if they are compelled to do so.(Not exactly those words) There is no "symbolic" altar call or coming up front. My pastor is Tom Pennington, he was associate pastor under John MacArthur for several years. We are blessed to have him as a pastor. Nothing like good solid biblical teaching! I love it!
     
  17. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    I use an invitation and I'd probably be tarred and feathered if I tried to do away with it. However, I simply put out the call for people to respond if they feel so led (nothing more, nothing less). No sales pitch..No emotional manipulation..No singing "Just As I Am" 10X..Just an opportunity to respond as a person feels so led by the moving of the Holy Spirit in his or her life.
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    When your pastor was probably not born that was done at FBC Modesto in Modesto, CA. It is not the invitation or lack of invitation that makes a church grow or die. It is the church's ability to love to is essential.

    An invitation in the OT is found in Josh 24:15, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
     
    #78 gb93433, Jul 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2010
  19. ROSAMARIA FABRIZIO

    ROSAMARIA FABRIZIO New Member

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    :thumbsup:Very well put Eagle. We need more of the Truth spoken in boldness. I thank you with all my heart for dong such.. Praise the Lord for all whom seek Him with all their hearts, mind and soul. And seek Him in His Word every day. He is the LIFE/TRUTH/WAY.
    To Him is all the Glory.

    I appreciate such men/women of God that are Truthful in the True Gospel.

    For I will keep on seeking/as my walk with JESUS is a always going to keep my eyes on Him. Every day I need Him. Without HIm I can not do nothing. Philippians 4:13.

    ty,

    lu
    Blessing and love,
    rf. <3
     
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