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Featured Soteriologyish

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, Apr 3, 2016.

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  1. Browner

    Browner Member

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    1st sentence is correct.
    Please explain how anyone knows the results of the testing.
    Testing is not given without purpose; failure is an option.
    There can be no assurance until all testing is finished.
    Isn't this obvious?

    2nd sentence is ununderstandable.
    The new word is offered free of charge.
    Perhoops you mean Christ guarantees eternal security.
     
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I have not read Sproul.
    I was referring to the Bible.
     
    #22 JonC, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    ah....how do we know through results. Good question. There is an answer key provided.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know in your opinion they can. But in the Bible they cannot. And I agree that only those who endure until the end are saved.
     
    #24 JonC, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  5. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Please, give us a break ...
    in post #17, you were referring to Norman Geisler.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In post# 17 I used Geisler as an example of departing from Scripture in forming doctrine (I said that Geisler's method of interpreting eternal security as an assurance of salvation is an error. What I presented to you in defense of eternal salvation/everlasting life was not Geisler but Scripture....those were BIBLE VERSES, not quotes from Sproul or Geisler). Let's at least be honest in our disagreement.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand, Browner, from your comments that you are unable to understand how a person can believe that salvation is eternal yet only those who persevere are saved. My suggestion is that you slow down and prayerfully study Scripture while considering the views you reject here. You may never agree, but at least you may come to an understanding of the position that you are rejecting.

    Of those who are given to the Son, the Son will raise on the last day (he will not lose any). Yet we must persevere. You cannot reconcile that, so you insult me. I can reconcile that because the reason we persevere is God. The reason you cannot reconcile those passages with the one's you present is because of a fundamental misunderstanding of man's role in salvation. Until you address that error, those passages will always appear "mixed up."

    Allow Scripture to dictate your belief, even when you cannot understand how things "fit". Sooner or later I think that it'll make sense to you.
     
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This may help "unconfuse" what you see as confusion on my part, Brother:

    Hebrews 3:12-15

    Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

    Did you notice that highlighted part? When I said that Christ will lose none and that those who endure are saved you replied that my belief in those passages was confusion on my part. Yet here it is again. We have become partakers of Christ IF we hold fast our assurance until the end. Not "we have become partakers of Christ" but maybe we won't hold fast. The problem is your definition of "salvation". It is too temporary and much too dependent on man (which perhaps explains why it's so temporary).
     
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  9. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Okay, I no comprehende da English ... Sorry.
    I thought you were in some way referring to this book by Geisler.
    Which you say you weren't, and he certainly didn't.
     
  10. Browner

    Browner Member

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    My response to you is simply ...
    The reason you cannot reconcile those passages with the one's you present is because of a fundamental misunderstanding of man's role in salvation. Until you address that error, those passages will always appear "mixed up".

    IMO, you are totally ignoring THE MANY DOZENS OF WARNINGS
    given in the NT about falling away, departing, drawing back, etc.
    from the faith. The drawing back one is unto perdition,
    which some believers insist is NOT hell.
    Go figure ... 'cause I can't.

    The Holy Spirit does His best, butski man's free will reigns supreme!
    That's why Paul told the Roman believers to CHOOSE sin,
    or CHOOSE to be a slave of obedience unto righteousness
    unto holiness unto eternal life (as opposed to eternal death).

    Please refer to a dictionary to find out what the verb "choose" means.
     
    #30 Browner, Apr 11, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You had asked if I was referencing Sproul. I said I was not. I meant putting Geislers book in parentheses to indicate that as a reference and one to that Geislers quote on another thread where he did in face draw a distinction between POS and OSAS. But my view is not Geislers.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  12. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Total insanity ... don't understand a word of this!
    A super job of total confusion ... well done!
    (Like I told you ... no comprende da English.)

    I'm thinking of taking 20 years off ...
    and going back to start school all over again.
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Good idea. :)
     
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  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand your position. It is one I once held. In fact, I believe it fairly natural to man. I have come to reject that view, but not because I do not understand. But judging from your statements you do not seem to understand my position. Often people are blinded to other views and they only appear as confusion or nonsense. Until you overcome that handicap you will not be on good ground to make a decision.

    Only in religion could someone suppose a choice can only be made if one has an uninfluenced will.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'll help. You asked me if I was referencing a R.C. Sproul book.
    I said that I was not, I was referencing the Bible (I thought you were dealing with my view....what I was arguing).

    Then you said that you obviously couldn't read because I said I referenced Norman Geisler. The book was "Chosen but Free", not "Chosen by God" (I had the title of the book wrong).

    But I am not advocating Geisler's position and I have not read Sproul's position (mostly because Sproul is not someone I have chosen....freely chosen....to read....but if God makes me do it then I suppose I will freely choose to do so Biggrin).
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Does this even deserve a response?
    butski? da english ...perhoops
    a typical Pauline tongue-in-cheek one-liner:
    "butski, you incredibly-wonderful guys 'n gals
    wouldn't be guilty of such things, wouldest thou!"

    then...The Holy Spirit does His best, butski man's free will reigns supreme???
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    If a believer can lose his salvation then what happens to the rewards that he builds up for eternity?
    For example:
    The crown of rejoicing: 1 Thess. 2:19, 20. & Dan 12:3 To those who faithfully are witnesses to the saving grace of God and leads souls to Jesus. This crown has also been named the soul winner's crown. It seems to indicate here that God will be giving a crown to those who have been witnessing to others and leading people to Christ.

    Telling others about the grace of God, telling others about Jesus, is the greatest thing that you can do for someone while here on this earth. When you help someone to be led to the Lord, you have just been used as a vessel of God.

    God will judge you by your willingness and desire to be used by Him to witness to others, not necessarily on how many actually get saved, because we are to water and He gives the increase.

    So if the saved person faithfully witnesses and then commits a sin let's say looks upon someone with a lustful thought and is killed in a car accident, then would they have lost their salvation and this crown? for these rewards will be given as we see in 1 Corinthians 3:
    11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

    Paul is speaking to Believers here, some will build gold, silver and precious stones, Paul speaks of the crowns believers can gain by there works after salvation, so too James and Peter speak of them. Yet Paul says we can build up wood, hay and straw which is done in works that are not lead by the Holy Spirit.

    Paul states where we will receive these rewards for good and bad as we see 2 Corinthians 5:
    9 "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

    We labor as believers and we must appear before the BEMA seat, that is the judgement seat of Christ. As believers we will receive rewards for the things done in this body Paul says, whether good or bad we (believers) will face this judgment seat.

    Now let's look too at Revelation 20:11 we see the Great White Throne but it is not referred to as the "BEMA SEAT" the judgment seat of Christ. It is referred to as the Great White Throne and the dead small and great stand before Him. This would be just unbelievers for they are dead in trespasses and sin. They are judged and condemned because their names are not found written in the book of life.

    So the believer who falls away from serving will receive rewards and if he has never carried out any faithful service then he will receive wood, hay and straw, " If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." If any believers reward for works is burned up and he has no reward of intrinsic value he will be saved yet so as through the fire. Believers who fall away will be saved. Many believers IMO will have both types of rewards, some will have more of the good of intrinsic value and some will have those that will be consumed, as whole IMO most will have both types.
     
  18. Browner

    Browner Member

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    Thanks for your interesting and well-thought-out post.

    1 Thess 2:
    19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing?
    Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ
    at His coming?
    20 For you are our glory and joy.


    The much more important "crown" in the NT,
    e.g. Col 3:24, Rev 22:12, refers to eternal life.
    This I can prove from the NT Scriptures.
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Of course Eternal Life is the Gift of God and therefore is given by Him to all who believe.
    Ephesians 2:8 & 9,
    8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
    First God's Grace brought salvation and what is grace?
    God's
    Riches
    At
    Christ
    Expense
    In other God supplies salvation by Grace to each and everyone who by Faith belives on Christ and calls upon Him for Salvation. And since it is a gift that salvation is a gift it is never taken back no matter what the receiver of the gift does. Once the gift is taken it is never taken back.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think one issue, revmwc, is that many look at the "Christian life" as prescriptive (do this and you will be saved) whereas Scripture presents the "Christian life" as descriptive (if you are saved, this describes you). I believe the reason Browner evaluates my statement that we have become partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end as "confusion" is because he sees being "in Christ" as a decision (if, given the opportunity, we simply save our selves by jumping onto the "lifeboat", then certainly we can jump back into the ocean if we so choose). I do not know that he can understand it but as confusion giving that presupposition. It is either by grace and not of ourselves, or it is by works and of ourselves.
     
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