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Featured Soul Sleep and Seventh Day Adventists

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ChristianSoldier, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In reference to his body, yes.
    Up to here we agree.
    Give the reference here. If this is from Ezekiel it is speaking about the law and punishment for crimes done. The soul (that is the person who has committed crimes) shall die for the crimes he committed (such as murder). That is the context of that verse. It is not speaking of "soul" as in the soul of a man, but rather the entire person.
    Again what does that mean to you? Have you ever poured out your soul to a person? You tell them everything. You get it all out. It involves the entire person. It does not refer just to the inward part of man.
    Christ took our sins upon himself, not "his soul." Where do you get that from? The person is more than just a soul. He suffered and died for us.
    He was speaking of the body of Christ, for he was speaking of the resurrection. Christ's soul/spirit cannot die. You cannot kill God.
    Soul is usually used in connection with the thinking part of man, as in the brain. Sometimes it is used interchangeably with spirit as to indicate the immortal part of man. But here it simply means the "me" part of man, as David is saying "You will not leave me in the grave."
    David was dead, both physically and brain dead. His mind ceased to work.
    Yes.
    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    This is physical death--where the body is separated from spirit.

    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    --This is spiritual death--where the spirit was separated from God.

    Find for me "trinity" and other theological terms in the Bible.
     
  2. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again DHK,

    I appreciate your response. I was starting to worry that you did not believe in Christ’s reign on earth, but only taught heaven going, both before and after the resurrection. I have quoted an abbreviated version of part of your reply. I have reservations about the parts that I left out even in the above, but will not discuss that here. We still hold a different view on whether man was mortal or in some way immortal after he was expelled from the Garden of Eden, but I do not want to respond to everything you have raised. Yes I agree that man was made a little lower than the angels, but we differ in our conclusion of what this represents. Unless something really important or beneficial arises in this thread I would to conclude my involvement here. I have some catching up with some interesting Isaiah studies in conjunction with our Bible Class. We are considering Isaiah 1-12, and we are next to consider Isaiah 11, a very important chapter.

    I am not sure if this is a question or a statement. If a statement then I have a different view as I believe the way in which the Father is revealed is in and through His Son. Jesus then is Yahweh manifest or revealed. There is one God the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. This is not the subject of this thread, so I will not expand on this theme or continue to respond to this subject on this thread.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  3. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    A friend or loved one of yours dies. Three days later you go to the funeral and the casket is open yet someone will say, I do not want to look because that isn't really him. Him, that is the person you loved and or knew, the personality you communed with and thought of; the living soul. Soul is what makes up the person, the personality of the body of flesh. That body of dead flesh looks like your memory of the person, The soul, that occupied that body of flesh.

    Speaking of the resurrection of the Christ.
    not was left the soul of him into Hades ------neither-or not yet-------
    the flesh of him perceived thru corruption

    Neither and or not yet, connects the not really him, his body of flesh to the personality, the soul that is loved, hated or what ever, to the resurrection of the Christ

    The interlinear of the Greek is the soul of the Christ and the flesh of the Christ resurrected.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    This is physical death--where the body is separated from spirit.

    Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    --This is spiritual death--where the spirit was separated from God.

    Sin brings death, when we sin we are dead in trespasses and sins.
    When the body is without the spirit we die. This still happens to those who, "in Christ," have been quickened.
    I think we are told that still yet future there is also something called the second death.

    Just what death did Christ die for? The Christ who could not die?

    How could the, "physical death," of the Christ be payment for our sins that bring about, "spiritual death," and why would it be necessary to raise from the dead the physical body in incorruptible flesh and bone of the Christ?

    Was the Christ,Jesus of Nazareth conceived in the virgin Mary of Spirit the God born of her flesh and blood, actually the Son of the Living God, subject to death?

    That person, who was conceived by Spirit the God, who remained without sin, yet was made sin for us and could suffer death, "unqualified death," but death the wages of sin, which would require for life to be given from an outside source in order to live again.

    If the Son of God could not die than we can not be saved.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Percho, God cannot die!
    The sinless Son of Man died. His physical body died. His physical body was laid in a tomb. His physical body rose from the dead. Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time. As a man he was perfectly sinless throughout his lifetime on earth, one of the requirements that he met for being a sacrifice for our sins. He was "the just dying for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit" (1Pet.3:18).

    At one point on the cross it was as if, momentarily, God the Father turned his back on God the Son as he bore the sins of the world. That is when Christ called out: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    We believe that Christ went down to Hades (also known as Sheol in the OT). A picture of it is given in Luke 16. It is the place of the departed dead in the OT. He told the thief on the cross, "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise," a part of Sheol. He went down, and led all those there, with the thief, up to heaven with him. He did not remain there.

    The other compartment is still there, called Hell. Someday death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev.29:11-15). Thus those who enter hell enter permanently. Its punishment is forever. "And they shall be tormented day and night forever and forever" (Rev.20:10,15).
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    DHK the error in your post is here:

    At one point on the cross it was as if, momentarily, God the Father turned his back on God the Son as he bore the sins of the world. That is when Christ called out: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

    It wasn't as if, "momentarily,". It was at that very moment, Christ felt the sin of the world upon himself and he at that moment himself gave his life for our sins. He commended his spirit, his life, into the hands of the Father who had begotten him. Christ died for us. Not momentarily but for three days and three nights the Christ was dead.

    The whole point of God sending his Son in the flesh was for the purpose of to be able to die. True had God sent his Son in the manner in which he raised him from the dead, that is in the spirit he would not have been able to die.
    The only way you can die is to be in the flesh.

    because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the (to the) spirit, 1 Peter 3:18 YLT

    The Christ did not come in the spirit. Come into the world as Spirit.
    The Christ came in the flesh. In the water and in the blood. 1 John 4

    The Son of God was separated from his Father until the Father God raised him from the dead. The Father raised the Son from the dead by the Spirit of the Father. The Spirit is life.

    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus (The Son of God) from the dead dwell in you, he (God the Father) that raised up Christ (The Son of God) from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

    I am the resurrection and the life. Prophesy.

    By resurrection the last Adam a life giving Spirit 1C15:45 Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. V46 That is speaking of the last Adam, Christ being after the resurrection a life giving Spirit. He came into the world a living soul like Adam subject to death. He was resurrected from the dead a life giving Spirit, no more subject to death.

    The Lamb of God, the Son of God was slain, would die, before the first man Adam made in the image of God was created, let alone sinned and brought death to man.

    For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth (makes alive) Prophesy [The Father raised Jesus the Son the last Adam from the dead a life giving Spirit] even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Percho,
    When Christ came into this world he came as fully God and fully man.
    He was God incarnate. He never gave up his deity.
    When he died on the cross, he died a physical death, but God did not die, and could not die. It was the body of Jesus that died; the body of Jesus that was buried; the body of Jesus that was raised from the dead, and it is Christ in his glorified body that sits on the right hand of the throne of God ever making intercession for us. He is our advocate.

    He was God and man at the same time.
    The man Christ Jesus died on the cross.
    God did not and never will die. It is impossible.
     
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 cor 15:13,14 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then our preaching vain, and your faith also vain.
    1 cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.


    WHY? Why did God the Son need to be given any kind of body? He had done his job, he came in the flesh and died in the flesh. Why would he or we either as saved immortal souls ever need a body again, a body clothed in life?

    Why was his death vain if he the God Man wasn't raised from the dead?

    There is no purpose for the resurrection of the dead in your belief. It is just an afterthought to give one body.
     
    #47 percho, Feb 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2013
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    --God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24).
    --Through Jesus Christ God was revealed to mankind.

    Christ, being man, was tempted in all points such as we are, and yet without sin.
    Because he went through life without sin he is qualified to be our Great High Priest. He can sympathize with us.
    His resurrection conquered sin, death, hell, and Satan.

    When Christ comes a second time he will set up His Kingdom on earth, sit on an earthly throne and reign on this earth in a physical body.
    After that he will create a new earth and a new heaven.
    Even now he still has his resurrected body. And when the rapture takes place we also will receive our glorified bodies.

    The answers to your questions are in the Bible. God has a plan and does things for a purpose. Who are we to question His purposes and His methods?
     
  9. Stevie

    Stevie New Member

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    I
     
  10. Stevie

    Stevie New Member

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    Before you dismiss "Soul Sleep" you may want to look at the following:
    1- Do we have any evidence that Eutychus (who was raised from the dead by Paul) went to heaven between the time he died and the time when he resurrected? The answer is no.

    2 - Did Jesus go to heaven immediately after the crucifixion? The answer is no.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus went down into Sheol. and spoke to people, so were not asleep!
     
  12. Stevie

    Stevie New Member

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    Let me get this straight.
    Jesus told the thief on the cross "Verily I say unto you, today you'll be in paradise with Me". According to these words from Jesus (and all non-soul sleep believers) Jesus and the thief went to paradise/heaven after they died. Yet, when He met the women on sunday morning He told them "Do not touch me for I haven't ascended to heaven yet". Later on when He met the disciples it was okay for them to touch Him. So, only somewhere between the time that He met the women and the time that He met the disciples did He go to heaven. NOT at the time when He died in the cross.
    You said that when He died He went and speak to people in Sheol. Some bible commentaries indicate that to be the fallen angels which is "kept until the day of judgement". Not humans currently on hell.
     
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