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Soul Sleep (the unconscious dead)

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by wopik, Jul 3, 2004.

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  1. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly New Member

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    It seems like wopik has started another thread on the Baptist only section.

    His person info on this forum used to give the web site for the Herbert W Armstrong Worldwide Church of God as a reference, but he took it off.

    I wonder why!!!

    In my opinion as a Ph.D. Bible student, most of Eccl.s is the thought of "unenlightened man under the sun."

    Armstrong and SDAs teach "annihilationism," not "soul sleep." That is, the soul ceases tdo exist unti lit is reconstituted for the final judgment.

    The Hebrew word, Sheol, occurs 65 times and should never be translated "grave" as does the NIV every time but once.

    O. T. Hebrews believed in the conscious continued existence of the soul after death. This is proven by the many references to witchcraft, necromancy, shades and spirits of the dead in the netherworld of Sheol. It is this netherword that is the equivalent to Hades in the story in LUke 16.
     
    #61 Russ Kelly, Jul 18, 2004
  2. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    But wopik, your analysis can not touch the fact that the inerrant, infallible Word of God says that it was Samuel in several places. Jesus said the Scriptures cannot be broken.

    15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
    16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?...

    Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

    On top of all that Samuel's prophecy came true.

    HankD
     
    #62 HankD, Jul 18, 2004
  3. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    So Wopik, which breakaway group from the WCOG based on your theological study is the most correct?
     
    #63 Ben W, Jul 19, 2004
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Samuel said, "Why hast thou disquieted me...?" This indicates that he was not enjoying the bliss of heaven, but rather the sleep of death. (cf. Job 3:17; Ecc. 9:5,10; Jn. 11 esp. vs. 11,24,25,44).

    Would God raise Samuel in these circumstances after instructing Israel: "Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them, I am the LORD your God"? (Lev. 19:31).

    God punished Saul with death. "So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." (1 Chronicles 10:13-14).


    God could have used the witch as He did the lying prophet of Bethel (1 Kings 13). In so doing, it no more implies sanction to the witch's activities than it does to Beelzebub in Jesus' allusion, (Matt. 12:27) or to the belief of the Pharisees in Luke 16:19-31.
     
    #64 wopik, Jul 21, 2004
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The Word of God still says Samuel.

    HankD
     
    #65 HankD, Jul 21, 2004
  6. Jacob Webber

    Jacob Webber New Member

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    I always heard the Witch was scared when Samuel appeared. I guessed it was becuase She had never really summoned someone from the dead and was afraid when it happened. And God brought Samuel back despite the Witch.
     
    #66 Jacob Webber, Jul 21, 2004
  7. Russ Kelly

    Russ Kelly New Member

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    Numbers 16:30 says thet the rebellious there will descend ALIVE into Sheol. If Sheol is merely the grave and they cease to exist as soon as they reach the grave, then Moses' statement is absolutely meaningless. Read the context.

    Deu 32:22 says God's fire burns into teh LOWEST part of Sheol. if Sheol is merely six feet of grave, then this makes no sense.

    Ps 86:13 says "Thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol." Again DEPTHS refers to something much deeper than the grave.

    In Isaiah 7:11; 14:14; Jonah 2:2 and Amos 9:2. Sheol is as deep as heaven is high. Again Sheol is NOT the gravae.

    In Jonah 2:6 (see verse 6) Sheol is compared to the base of the mountains at the bottom of the sea. Jonah, like the rich man, is crying out to God From Sheol.

    I have plenty more texts than these to show that Sheol is NOT the grave. the body rests in te grave and the spirit went to a conscious existence in Sheol in the O.T.
     
    #67 Russ Kelly, Jul 21, 2004
  8. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Because Samuel was dead and could not actually respond to the witch, evil spirits (fallen angels) impersonated him. They gave the witch the information she needed to convince Saul she had really seen and spoken to Samuel.

    She told Saul his army would indeed lose the battle the next day and he and his army would be killed. Actually the battle occurred a few days later and while Saul and three of his sons were killed (including David’s close friend, Jonathan), two sons escaped and lived many years.

    These evil spirits, the fallen angels, are working with Satan to continue the lie Satan told Eve in the garden: "Thou shalt not surely die (Genesis 2:17). The mediums claim they receive information from those who have died, but God’s word assures us that the "dead know not anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10).


    http://www.heraldmag.org/A%20to%20Z%20Book/lesson42.htm
     
    #68 wopik, Jul 22, 2004
  9. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Where does it specifically say in the Bible that Evil Spirits imitated Samuel? Book, Chapter and Verse please. [​IMG]
     
    #69 Ben W, Jul 22, 2004
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear wopik,

    1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul...

    1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel...

    1 Samuel 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel...

    These are the words of the inspired writer of the Book of Samuel.
     
    #70 HankD, Jul 22, 2004
  11. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder New Member

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    I am sorry but the Bible, even in the Hebrew, says that it was the spirit of Samuel chastising Saul for speaking with a witch. I believe that if it were a lying spirit then the Bible would let us know because that is just the way of the literature of the Bible, to give us such details. You need to find another argument to support your claims.
     
    #71 GODzThunder, Jul 22, 2004
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    When King Saul got out of fellowship with God, who refused further communications, he turned for advice to a witch at Endor, and asked her to awaken Samuel the Prophet, who meantime had died.

    The evil spirits impersonated Samuel easily enough, and the witch gave the King messages in his name, whereas Samuel was dead and could not give or receive messages. King Saul saw nothing; he merely received an answer from the witch, who said she saw and heard Samuel.

    *********************

    Merely from the witch's description that she saw "An old man come up...", did "Saul preceive that it was Samuel" (1 Sam. 28: 14). Saul never saw Samuel: Saul had to ask "what form is he of?"

    ******************

    The evil spirits have some way of knowing much respecting the future. But anybody under the circumstances might have known the fate to expect for Saul and his army.
    The King himself knew what to expect. It was this that troubled him and led him to seek the witch, contrary to the Divine command.


    It is not for a moment supposable that God and Samuel, having refused to communicate with the King, would change and permit a witch, condemned by the Divine Law, to overrule the matter (1Chr. 10:13,14).
     
    #72 wopik, Jul 22, 2004
  13. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder New Member

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    sorry but the Bible says the witch "Saw Samuel" You can argue until you are blue but the Bible says what it says. There are other verses in the Bible that say "lying spirits" no this is Samuel, not dead in spirit but sent from the Lord to rebuke Saul for this final wicked act. The Bible says what it says.
     
    #73 GODzThunder, Jul 22, 2004
  14. danrusdad

    danrusdad New Member

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    wopik,

    you offer alot of argument and not much scripture to back up what you say...
     
    #74 danrusdad, Jul 23, 2004
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Dear wopik,

    I just checked the Word of God again and it still says...

    1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul...

    1 Samuel 28:16 Then said Samuel...

    1 Samuel 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel...

    HankD
     
    #75 HankD, Jul 23, 2004
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I agree that it the Bible clearly says it was Samuel who talked to Saul.

    Saul was punished because he consulted the medium; his intention was to inquire of someone who had a familiar spirit (which was an expression used for mediums) but God suprised the medium by allowing Samuel to appear. The medium did not bring up Samuel.

    Samuel rebuked Saul for his past disobedience in not killing all the Amelakites. A demon would never have done this -- this was a rebuke from God.
     
    #76 Marcia, Jul 23, 2004
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Of course. The record in the Bible is recording who Saul and the witch thought it was.

    Saul, it seems, was not permitted to see any manner of similitude himself, but he must take the woman's word for it, that she saw an old man covered with a mantle, or robe, the habit of a judge, which Samuel had sometimes worn, and some think it was for the sake of that, and the majesty of its aspect, that she called this apparition Elohim, a god or gods; for so magistrates are styled, Ps 82:1.

    That it could not be the soul of Samuel himself they might easily apprehend when it ascended out of the earth, for the spirit of a man, much more of a good man, goes upward, Eccl 3:21 -- to be with God.
     
    #77 wopik, Jul 24, 2004
  18. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder New Member

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    show me chapter and verse that it was a lying spirit! The Bible makes it clear when there is a lying spirit or demonic force. It does no such thing neither does it make any implication here. Stop assuming what is not there and take the Bible at its word! If the Word of God says it was Samuel then it was Samuel, if the Word of God says it is a lying spirit or the two assumed it was Samuel it would have said such. It says what it says and means what it says, Amen!
     
    #78 GODzThunder, Jul 24, 2004
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Wopik, a demon would not rebuke Saul for disobeying God. This was a clear, specific rebuke to Saul because "you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites" (v. 18).

    Also, I agree with GodzThunder and others that if the text says it was Samuel speaking, then it was Samuel speaking. God always makes it clear if it is false prophets or lying spirits (as in 1 Kings 22:23) who are speaking, either explicitly or from the context.
     
    #79 Marcia, Jul 24, 2004
  20. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    if I may quote a segment of an essay --

    As we watched the news the day George Harrison died, and the media was full of lamentation over the loss of an icon, my daughter asked me, "Who was George Harrison?"

    Then I understood that one generation comes and another generation goes away. As Solomon said, "even the memory of them is forgotten" (Eccl 9:5).

    The man whose presence dominated the attention of a certain segment of one generation is barely known by the next. And to me, that brought home "the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is the whole duty of man." (Eccl. 12:13)

    http://www.cemnetwork.com/essay/essay.php?eid=95
     
    #80 wopik, Jul 28, 2004
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