Soul Sleep

True. But if you take the view that resurrection of THOSE who "COME to life" is in fact the first resurrection and is in the future right where it is placed in Rev 20 (which is right after the future event described in Rev 19 - the 2nd coming)

And IF you take the 1000 years as a real 1000 years.

Then you have to admit that it makes sense to see this as a great massive "resurrection of the DEAD in Christ" as the 2nd coming. (Kinda like we see happening in 1Thess 4).

In that case "THOSE ... who COME TO LIFE" in Rev 20 has to be "The DEAD in Christ" -- the great army of the saints of all time.

It makes sense to see it that way if you are going to take the 1000 year event that follows Rev 19 as a future event to John's day and as a literal 1000 year period of time -- no more no less.

Actually we may be closer on that than you think.

In my view 1Thess 4 (rapture and resurrection of the DEAD in Christ at Christ's return) --- AND Rev 19-20 (Appearing of Christ and resurrection of the Holy and blessed saints - Souls that COME to life) are the same event being described by both John and Paul and is given all this detail because it IS the John 14:1-4 focus of the entire NT church.

(Hint: Peter says to fix your hope completely on this event.)

In that case - the saints are raised (as 1Thess 4 and Rev 20:2-4 state) and the saints are all raptured to heaven (as 1Thess 4 states) and the "REST are killed" (as Rev 19 states) and the "DESOLATE EARTH" scenario described in both Isaiah and Ezek results such that "I looked and behold there was NO MAN" nothing but ruined cities across the entire surface of the earth during that 1000 years.

That means that IF you are waiting to be "saved" during that 1000 years where all the wicked have been slain and all the saints have been rapture bodily to heaven (that WHERE I am there you may be Also) -- you are waiting for a dead end. Nobody is left alive on earth at that point.

So this view would ALSO hold that once you get to the 2nd coming - that is the end of "Choosing".

I also agree with your point that several others have also expressed belief in a kind of a-millennial view. I think that was the most popular view in Christian America at the start of the 19th century in fact. A very different shift however had taken place by the start of the 20th century in favor of premillennial 2nd coming views. Interestingly William Miller's group and also Adventists in the 1800's went around promoting the premillennial view of the 2nd coming in the 1800's.

In Christ,

Bob

 

:laugh: :laugh: Now that is a funny line, BobRyan!

Ed

 

Thanks ED - I thought it was funny at the time as well!

Especially when I notice that IM's reponse to Bro Bob after he dared to quote 1Thess 4:14 was ...

"Souls still attached to our bodies"??? where did that come from???

 

We had a good discussion on the soul sleep Bob. So many seem to be afraid to talk about this subject. It will be how it will be and ever how it is will be alright.

 

The word soul sleep sounds deceptive if the body is sleep but the spirit is in heaven with Christ.

 

Where is the soul? It pretty hard to separate the soul and spirit.

 

A great passage to refute the doctrine of soul-sleep is found in 1 Kings 17.

When the widow's son died, Elijah prayed that the child would live again. And the Word of God tells us his soul returned to Him.

The soul was not sleeping with the body, but leaves the body as is evident by this passage.

 

There has been no one on here that says the soul stays with the body that I know of. When death comes the soul goes to Heaven to be with Christ is what I believe. The body is dead and in the grave. "thou fool how can that be quicken except it first die."

 

For us slow city fellas...

Define

Soul

Spirit

Flesh

Which one repents?

 

I don't think you are that slow.

BR; can and probably will speak for himself.

As I said, I believe the soul of a saved person who dies goes to be with Christ and the Spirit goes back to God who give it. I also believe it is pretty hard if not impossible to separate the soul and spirit. I don't want to play child games as if we have to start on who repents the body or soul for the "soul that sinneth shall die and has to be made alive in Christ Jesus".

 

I agree with the resurrection but I think it is the second one when the righteous will be resurrected and those who are left and remain shall be changed in a moment and a twinkling of an eye. I believe that Christ was the First Resurrection and many of the bodies of the saints arose and went in to that Holy City after He arose.
I believe the thousand years is past tense as the scripture says, they livED and reignED for a thousand years. Also, it says " I saw the souls (of them), which is a part of a whole.

I really don't know what the SDA believe except what Bob has told me. He believes the soul just goes out of existance at death if I understood him right. He believes the spirit goes back to God who give it and the body is dead.

I also believe the body is dead for in order to go to Heaven it has to die. I know the scripture speaks of death as sleep but if anyone is total honest they have to admit that if God is going to "bring them with Him" they must be something coming from where God is.

 

lol..........

 

Afraid I don't understand the "slow" remark at all but will try to answer which is born again.

If it were the body then the body would not have to die.

If it were the Spirit then it could not go back to God who give it.

That just leaves the soul or "inwardly man" which dies dead to the love of sin and is made alive in Christ Jesus raised to walk a newness of life. Also, is stronger than the outward man and is what is kept by the power of God and in return keeps this outward man in subjection or the body.

Ecc 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Something is dead. I think the soul already died and was made alive.

Rom 8:23And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Mat 8:22But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
(let the dead in sin bury the dead in body)Something is dead.

 

5"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--

7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,

....

20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?

26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.

27"Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

28"Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

30"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.


31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

 

Thanks be to the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

The spirit returns to God who gave it. That not only the life principle that comes from God alone - it is also "the PERSON" in dormant form.

The body returns to DUST (that is NOT sleeping - that is being DUST).

The soul first used in Gen 2 "God breathed into man the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul".

The soul simply refers to "the PERSON".

Paul says of "Those who have FALLEN SLEEP" that they are "The DEAD IN CHRIST" and it is they who are brought to earth "WITH CHRIST" in 1Thess 4. We do not preceed them into heaven for "THE DEAD in Christ shall RISE FIRST and THEN we who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the air" this is how BOTH the DEAD in Christ and "WE who are alive and remain" are to find ourselves "WITH the Lord".

Matt 10 God destroys "BOTH body AND SOUL" in hell fire.

In Christ,

Bob