1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Soulless?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by menageriekeeper, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope, I don't believe that animals have souls either. Can't find it in the Bible! What animal ever sang a song (other than instinctively, like a bird), wrote a book, drew a picture (other than those monkeys that draw modern art [​IMG] ) or fell in love? These are all aspects of the human soul--that which makes us different than the animals. :cool:
     
  2. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope, I don't believe that animals have souls.

    Man has a soul because he was made to communicate with God and be the image God. Animals on the other hand were created to give us a nice place to live and something to do. Even so not one of them was sufficient to be helpmate for Adam. No soul and an inability to communicate on a human level was the problem here.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Helen, the rejoicing in Heaven when a soul is saved is not by the angels, since it is in "the presence of the angels." This is a common mistake when interpreting this passage.
     
  4. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, is that a part of the Bible that you simply choose to ignore?

    You can find "soul" applied to animals in Genesis 1:20, 21, 30 and Revelation 8:9 and 16:3.
     
  5. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe I need a different translation, but I don't see the word soul used in Gen 1:20-21. In verse 30 the breath of life is mentioned but it is not specific as to God breathing the breath of life into them as it is in the next chapter when God created Adam. Nor are any of the animals created in God's image(not created as spiritual beings).

    The passages in Revelation also don't mention animals having souls, just animals dying as a result of end time events.
     
  6. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Revelation 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life [psuche - souls], died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

    Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

    Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life [nephesh - soul], and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living [nephesh echie - living soul] creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Genesis 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life [nephesh - soul], I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, is that a part of the Bible that you simply choose to ignore?

    You can find "soul" applied to animals in Genesis 1:20, 21, 30 and Revelation 8:9 and 16:3.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Hope of Glory, if this is the best you can come up with to prove animals have souls, keep trying. As menageriekeeper has shown, the Genesis passages say nothing of the kind. And the Revelation passages use the Greek psuche, which means "life" or "soul" depending on the context. There is no context in Revelation to intimate that animals are anything like us in our inner man, and almost no translations translate "soul" for those passages. (The Modern KJV is the only exception to that I can find, and I checked 12 translations.)

    You are mistaken linguistically when you try to make the Hebrew nephesh and the Greek psuche mean "soul" in these passages. Both words have a much wider range of meaning ("semantic domain" in linguist lingo) than the English word "soul." In each of these passages the words are translated "life" by all major translations. You yourself had to put your "soul" interpretation in parenthesis in your most recent post, since the KJV rightly translates "life." [​IMG]
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But the Hebrew and Greek domains can and do intersect:

    Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (nephesh) in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul (psuche) in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    HankD
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    3
    Revelation 16:3 And the secounde aungel schedde out his viol in to the see, and the blood was maad, as of a deed thing; and ech man lyuynge was deed in the see. Wycliffe

    Wycliffe Bible was from 1534. It is interesting that Wycliffe says it is man that dies in the sea.
     
  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    But the Hebrew and Greek domains can and do intersect:

    Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul (nephesh) in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul (psuche) in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sure they can and do intersect. No problem there. But that's still a long way from proving that animals have souls from the passages given.

    Every single passage given to prove animals have souls has been translated (and should have been, IMO) in almost every version as "life" instead of "soul." With no compelling reason in the context, why interpret these passages to say that animals have souls? Unless, of course, one simply wants to believe that animals have souls. And of course anyone who has ever had a pet dog wants to believe! ;) (I will not comment on those soulless cats. [​IMG] )
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Fascinating!
     
  12. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Once again, you're interpreting and not translating, and you're interpreting it to say something that fits a preconceived notion. Why not look at what it simply says?

    Animals don't have a spirit, but the Bible plainly says they do have a soul, and they obviously have a body. The soul is the life. The life is in the blood. Why do you think the Jews were prohibited from drinking the blood of the animals? Why do you think the blood of the animals was kept in a basin under the altar? Why does Revelation 6:9 say, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls [same word] of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:" It's types that we're given from old for examples.

    CLV: "and a *third of the creatures *in the sea, *which |have a soul, died, and a *third of the ships decayed."

    This is the most literal translation of the Greek available.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree to the extent that the human soul is of a higher order than the soul of a dog or cat.

    Because as Hope of Glory has already said : a life principle.

    Personally I see the appreciation of the arts, etc that you mention earlier as a function of the image and likeness of God rooted in the intellect, emotion and will which we all possess from the Creator, even the unregenerate.

    It is this principle of the spirit of man which IMO is related to the image and likeness of God that separates us from the animal kingdom and not so much the soul.

    God is a Spirit.

    Pre-resurrection, we share the same essence or principle of mortal life with the animals "the life is in the blood", oxygenated blood.

    One day as resurrected beings we have the promise of the resurrection that we will share in the life principle (The Spirit of God who lives and abides forever) of our great God and Savior:

    1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


    HankD
     
  14. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hank, does this mean you think that animals have a soul, but not a spirit and I've(we) been misusing the terminology?
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, although philosophically some secular writers have the idea of an "anima" which energizes animals to perform instinctive and astoninshing things like complex migrations without any apparent training.

    I'm not 100 percent sure but I don't know of the word "spirit" being used of animals in Scripture (apart from "breath" Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?). There are cases in Scripture where intelligence or wisdom is attributed to animals and might have an origin in a kind of animal spirit.

    Proverbs 6
    5 Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.
    6 Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
    7 Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler,
    8 Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.

    "misuse" is a strong word and I wouldn't use it in this case.

    HankD
     
  16. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmm, by soul I usually mean that part of me that identifies with God.(ie, he saves my soul). By spirit I usually mean my conscience mind, the part of me that is sentient and has personality, the part of me that can form opinions, is creative and can think rational thoughts overcoming the instinctive reations of my body and mind(subconscience)

    Therefore when I say animals have no soul, I mean that they have no part of them that identifies with their Creator and therefore wishes to be with/like Him. They also don't suffer from the same void that only Christ can fill.
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Possibly but to me you are speaking of the mind the seat of "ego" where the following inputs are analyzed:

    Body - earth consciousness
    Soul - self consciousness.
    Spirit - God consciousness.


    HankD
     
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Whoa, Hope of Glory. I do believe I know the difference between interpreting and translating. I'm a missionary to Japan, which means I went to Japanese language school for two (count 'em) years, full time (35-40 hours of study a week). I have also done professional translation work, as have most cross-cultural missionaries going all the way back to William Carey. So I do know what I'm doing here.

    Either "life" or "soul" in these passages is translating, not interpreting. Which you choose depends on the context. Almost all versions choose "life," and a couple choose "soul." Just because I say the ones that choose "soul" are not looking at the context properly does not mean that I am or they are "interpreting and not translating."

    Having said that, it is simplistic to look at psuche and believe that, all things being equal, it should be always translated "soul," as the CLV does. (See their principles of translation on the website. They generally choose one English word for one Greek word.) There are many places in the NT that it must be translated "life." To give those in just Matthew: Matt. 2:20, 18:9, 20:28.

    Also, note the definition in Thayers:
    psuche {psoo-khay'}
    1) breath
    1a) the breath of life
    1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself
    in breathing
    1a1a) of animals
    1a12) of men
    1b) life
    1c) that in which there is life
    1c1) a living being, a living soul
    2) the soul
    2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
    2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
    2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
    Nope, can't agree that life = soul. Sure, the life of the flesh is in the blood. You lose your blood, you die! Forgive me for saying so, but you don't seem to understand that one word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. One word can mean either "soul" or "life" in another language, and that doesn't mean soul = life.
    Nope, it is not the most literal translation of the Greek available. That would be, by definition, an interlinear translation, which, as a "formal equivalence" translation, does not even try to approximate the grammar of the original language in the receptor language. And my interlinear has "life" in both Rev. 8:9 & 16:3.

    God bless. [​IMG]
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    16,547
    Likes Received:
    1,150
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Possibly but to me you are speaking of the mind the seat of "ego" where the following inputs are analyzed:

    Body - earth consciousness
    Soul - self consciousness.
    Spirit - God consciousness.


    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you here, HankD, though I put it a little differently.

    Body - communicates with the environment
    Soul - communicates with other people
    Spirit - communicates with God

    However you put it, I believe (without checking to be sure) that this is the usual approach of trichotomy in the systematic theologies.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,535
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes it is.

    Also :
    Mine (Geo Berry, 1971) has "life" in Revelation 8:9 and "soul" in Revelation 16:3.

    HankD
     
Loading...