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Sound Words

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rufus_1611, May 14, 2007.

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  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    The Greek term underlying "word" is logos (Strong's #3056) which is defined several ways: a word, an uttering, what is declared, a narration, or the act speaking. It seems a Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe.

    In the KJV it is translated 328 times (and twice not tranlsated): as "word" 218 times, but also as "saying" 50 times, "account" 8 times, "speech" 8 times, "Word" (Christ) 7 times, "thing" 5 times, and miscellaneously 32 other ways. For example, logos appears in the KJV at Matthew 5:32 as "cause" --

    But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.​

    Rather than questioning Paul's choice, I think the question should be: Why didn't the KJV revisors use another word in this context?
    _____

    "Sound" represents the Greek word hugiaino (Strong's #5198) which literally has to do with health and wellness of body. Metaphorically, it can refer to an opinion that is free from any mixture of error (Paul's in this case).

    In the KJV it is rendered as "sound" in half of the 12 total occurrences; also variously as "be sound", "be whole", "whole", "wholesome", "be in health", and "safe and sound".
     
    #81 franklinmonroe, May 15, 2007
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  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    So you are actually saying that sounds do not REALLY matter? Then how do we hold to "sound words?"

    You really are confusing me - sounds are important, but not sounds themselves are not REALLY important?!?!?!
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Why not set this as the "sound words" standard?

    2 Timothy 1v13 Haue thou the fourme of hoolsum wordis, whiche thou herdist of me in feith and loue in Crist Jhesu.
     
  4. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    [hijack] Why in the world do they call that the 1611 KJV? There aren't any "V's" in it. Shouldn't it be the 1611 KJU?
    [/hijack]
     
  5. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I cannot imagine the volume of objections that would be raised if someone else with an opposing point-of-view attempted to extract such a convoluted interpretation out of a scripture verse. When I read 2 Timothy 1:13 in the KJV it clearly states --

    Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.​

    The word "sound" is further describing "words". "Sound" is not the subject (notice, it is NOT constructed as 'the sound of words'). Really, the first phrase is not even about holding fast to the "words", but rather it is about holding fast to the "form".

    Also notice that literally in the KJV English Paul says that Timothy "heard of me", NOT 'heard from me'.
     
    #85 franklinmonroe, May 15, 2007
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  6. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Sorry, but I can barely understand people from Queens (New York) or Boston. I did live long enough in the South that I don't have as much difficulty deciphering their 'drawl'. For example, the pronounciation of English words by a native Austrailian and a natice Canadian would be so vastly different as to render your hypothesis null and void.
     
    #86 franklinmonroe, May 15, 2007
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  7. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    First, let's look at the key words from Webster's 1828 Dictionary--

    HOLD, v.t. pret.held; pp. held. Holden is obsolete in elegant writing. [Gr. to hold or restrain; Heb. to hold or contain.]
    1. To stop; to confine; to restrain from escape; to keep fast; to retain. It rarely or never signifies the first act of seizing or falling on, but the act of retaining a thing when seized or confined. To grasp, is to seize, or to keep fast in the hand; hold coincides with grasp in the latter sense, but not in the former. We hold a horse by means of a bridle. An anchor holds a ship in her station.
    (2.- 25. omitted to conserve sapce)

    F'AST, a.

    1. Literally, set, stopped, fixed, or pressed close. Hence, close; tight; as, make fast the door; take fast hold.
    (2.- 6. omitted to conserve sapce)

    FORM, n. [L. forma.]

    1. The shape or external appearance of a body; the figure, as defined by lines and angles; that manner of being peculiar to each body, which exhibits it to the eye as distinct from every other body. Thus we speak of the form of a circle, the form of a square or triangle, a circular form, the form of the head or of the human body, a handsome form, an ugly form, a frightful form.
    (2.- 9. omitted to conserve sapce)
    _________

    I have included the entire entry for "sound" --

    SOUND, a. [L. sanus.]

    1. Entire; unbroken; not shaky, split or defective; as sound timber.
    2. Undecayed; whole; perfect, or not defective; as sound fruit; a sound apple or melon.
    3. Unbroken; not bruised or defective; not lacerated or decayed; as a sound limb.
    4. Not carious; not decaying; as a sound tooth.
    5. Not broken or decayed; not defective; as a sound ship.
    6. Whole; entire; unhurt; unmutilated; as a sound body.
    7. Healthy; not diseased; not being in a morbid state; having all the organs complete and in perfect action; as a sound body; sound health; a sound constitution; a sound man; a sound horse.
    8. Founded in truth; firm; strong; valid; solid; that cannot be overthrown or refuted; as sound reasoning; a sound argument; a sound objection; sound doctrine; sound principles.
    9. Right; correct; well founded; free form error; orthodox. II Tim 1. Let my heart be sound in thy statutes. Ps. 119.
    10. Heavy; laid on with force; as sound strokes; a sound beating.
    11. Founded in right and law; legal; valid; not defective; that cannot be overthrown; as a sound title to land; sound justice.
    12. Fast; profound; undisturbed; as sound sleep.
    13. Perfect, as intellect; not broken or defective; not enfeebled by age or accident; not wild or wandering; not deranged; as a sound mind; a sound understanding or reason.​

    Notice that the word "sound" as it would have been understood prior to 1828 had nothing whatsoever to do with audio waves (commonly known as 'noise') being detected by the human ear.
    _________

    WORD, n. [G., L., to speak. A word is that which is uttered or thrown out.]

    1. An articulate or vocal sound, or a combination of articulate and vocal sounds, uttered by the human voice, and by custom expressing an idea or ideas; a single component part of human speech or language. Thus a in English is a word; but few words consist of one letter only. Most words consist of two or more letters, as go, do, shall, called monosyllables, or of two or more syllables, as honor, goodness, amiable.
    (2.- 14. omitted to conserve sapce)
    _________

    Once again our verse is 2 Timothy 1:13 (KJV) --
    Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. ​

    So, one suggestion for the meaning of the first phrase of the verse could be:
    Retain closely the distinctive shape of valid speech,​
     
    #87 franklinmonroe, May 15, 2007
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  8. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    That is an excellent argument. If one was to agree to your argument how do you recommend it be applied.
     
  9. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    That intitial suggestion for the meaning of the first English phrase of the 2 Timothy 1:13 was: Retain closely the distinctive shape of valid speech,...

    Of course, I don't know what this might have meant to Timothy coming from Paul. Obviously, they had a close personal relationship (described as father/son). It is a short statement, between a series of opening statements so that the context does not participate in clarification. I imagine that Timothy understood exactly what Paul meant.

    "Hold fast" (retain closely): could mean for Timothy to remember for the purpose of imitating or following as an example; alternatively, it might mean to stay committed and remain firm; believe

    "the form of" (distictive shape of): it is recognizable; possibly this is the proof needed to confirm, a piece of evidence that first identifies and also verifies; a template comes to my mind

    "sound words" (valid speech): maybe these are accurate descriptions, or attributes known of Paul; alternatively, perhaps the doctrines spoken by Paul, his good fatherly advise, spiritual truths

    I would have to study it out more; I had just thought that the interpretations being offered seemed flawed.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    2 Timothy 1:13 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
    Keepe the true paterne of the wholesome wordes,
    which thou hast heard of me in faith
    and loue which is in Christ Iesus.


    2 Timothy 1:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Holde fast the fourme of sound words,
    which thou hast heard of mee, in faith
    and loue, which is in Christ Iesus.


    The meaning for 'wholesome' or 'sound'
    pertaints to those meaning common to the
    two words in these two translaltion.
    The physical vibration of the word (AKA: 'sound')
    is not shared in common with 'wholesome'.

    Note also that 'sound words' means different than
    'word sounds' -- try not to get the two confused :BangHead:
     
  11. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Maybe you should define "dictionary".

    I know by my diction what words mean by what I've learned them to mean. Maybe you only learned what a word means by its sound.

    Sound words can only be word sounds when they agree, otherwise it's nothing more than babble.
     
  12. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Uh, to hear "of" some one means they heard some one in words that fit that description of that some one.
     
  13. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Take that up with the Gutenburgs, they were German, not English
     
  14. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Nope, not at all. The intent can still be understood without much trouble as using words that only have "convoluted" interpretations.
     
  15. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Nutshell: God meant what He said the first time without the serpents intervention to try and change the meaning by as subtle suggestions as possible without the hearer noticing the change.:praying:
     
  16. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    How could a hearing person ever get word sounds confused with sound words without knowing what the words sound like?:BangHead: :BangHead: :BangHead: Wham! Wham! Wham!

    "Wholesome" should be defined about this time.

    1 : promoting health or well-being of mind or spirit
    2 : promoting health of body
    3 a : sound in body, mind, or morals b : having the simple health or vigor of normal domesticity


    It is abnormal to think one hasn't understood the meaning of a word by definition.

    Those hearing understand by sounds of sound words. Those deaf understand by the sight of sound words knowing they soundly mean one thing and not a multitude of sometimes opposing meanings.

    Sin = bad

    Immorality = anything I decide by my opinion to be contrary to my palate.
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Brother Salamander: //Sin = bad//

    This was true when you were a kid.

    But today 'bad' means what 'good' used to mean.
    So if you try to communicate with a person
    who thinks //'bad' means 'good'// then you
    will NOT communicate your idea (BTW, I
    fully agree with your idea, we are just discussing
    how to say/write/communicate it to others).

    The burden of communicating is on us:
    we know the Truth that will SAVE souls eternally.
     
  18. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Yes, He did! BTW - that would have been in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

    Sal, your assertion that the "sound" of scripture is quasi-inspired has been shown to wrong on three counts.

    First, given the differences in the manner in which people articulate words, differentiating the perfect sacred sound from a secular sound is completely implausible. Next, the construction of 2 Timothy 1:13 in no way allows for the word "sound" to be the subject of the first clause. Thirdly, the archaic definition of "sound" doesn't mean audible vibrations.

    Your denial of the facts presented does appear to be irrational.
     
    #98 franklinmonroe, May 15, 2007
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  19. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I have had difficulty deciphering Salamander's posts before, but ...huh???
     
  20. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    I just have to say this is one of the most idiotic, foolish and nonsensical threads that I have ever read on the BB.

    :BangHead:
     
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