Sovereign Grace of God

Larry, may I draw your attention to the following"

 

There is nothing derogatory in the way I used the word. I was paying the person a complement!

 

Sure, the warning goes for everybody. We need to clean this place back up to the level is previously existed. It was low enough then.

Somehow, that doesn't ring just right, but I will take your word for it. Don't do it again.

 

Don't complement anyone? is that "cleaning the place up"?

 

OK Genius, tell us what you think God hopes for. Tell us what God cannot see. If come up with one thing that cannot be refuted, then you may be able to shake my position. But until you can you are the one on shakey ground. </font>[/QUOTE]Will you please post a quote where I stated that God cannot see or that God hopes for anything.

 

Keep up or take notes!

There is no post with those direct words but you have indicated that God gives faith to man as in transferring ownership of faith from God to man.

That presumes that you believe God has faith! Faith is the substance of things hoped for, so what does God hope for. And the evidence of things unseen, so what is it that God cannot see?

Your statement of belief that God gives faith means that you believe that God cannot see all, and that he is not omniscient and has to hope for something.

If you believed that God is omniscient and sees all, you would not say that God gives man faith!

God gives man all the reasons to have faith but does not give man the faith.

 

Bless your little pea pikin heart Wes, I suggest that you take notes because you presume too much. I repeat some past posts for your benefit;

As you see I did not state that God transferred anything. Neither have I questioned God's omniscience, His foreknowledge, His Sovereignty, or stated that He hoped for anything. To the contrary it is you who have questioned the Sovereignty of God in Salvation and have done so in a very abusive manner.

 

You also do not understand God's attributes. He has no faith! There is nothing for him to have faith in!

He requires no salvation, he is Holy!

He requires no redemption, He is the redeemer!

Who can promise anything to God for him to hope for?

If you can provide any evidence what ever for your belief that God gives man faith out of himself, Then you may be able to convince me.

I believe that God gave man in the creation the ability and capability to have faith, but did not give man the faith. I believe that God has provided every possible reason for man to HAVE faith, and that FAITH is what God seeks in man for him to save man. There are simply too many examples of that in scripture. Take Hebrews 11 to heart. You will see that human FAITH is the key ingredient in God's RELATIONSHIP with man! Man must possess it within himself for the relationship to exist.

 

Wes, Outwest

So far I have not seen you explain anything. You have unsuccessfully tried to explain some Scripture away. You have repeatedly declared that God does not give man faith. Can you explain the following Scripture away or will you admit that you are wrong?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9. To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

Successful refutation of election!

 

'Faith cometh by hearing', or is that a lie by the same author as verse 9 here?
The truth that I am trying to get you to understand is that the Spirit of God does not plant faith in the spirit of man. Faith comes through knowledge gained from hearing God's word. The Spirit of God illuminates the word so that 'Totally Depraved' (boy that's a lie) man can see the truth and put his trust in it!

 

'Faith cometh by hearing', or is that a lie by the same author as verse 9 here?
The truth that I am trying to get you to understand is that the Spirit of God does not plant faith in the spirit of man. Faith comes through knowledge gained from hearing God's word. The Spirit of God illuminates the word so that 'Totally Depraved' (boy that's a lie) man can see the truth and put his trust in it! </font>[/QUOTE]The Apostle Paul is speaking of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He states very clearly that one of those gifts is the gift of faith, quote: To another faith by the same Spirit.[1 Corinthians 12:9] Yet you say, quote: "The truth that I am trying to get you to understand is that the Spirit of God does not plant faith in the spirit of man." That statement totally and falsely contradicts what Scripture unambiguously states.

So are you denying the inspired, innerrant Word of God? How sad! Need anything more be said?

 

No! You are misinterpreting what it says!

 

Wes....
Stop embarrassing yourself with the John 17 defense of Romans...

Paul WAS NOT describing the apostles... you've been told that to many times... your wrong.

Paul was writing to the CALLED, ELECT of Romans... and in Chapter 8 he was talking about those who are CALLED...

Romans 1:6-7 6 including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, 7 To all those in Rome who are LOVED by God and CALLED to be saints

Romans 8:28 28 And we know that for THOSE WHO LOVE GOD all things work together for good, for those who are CALLED according to his PURPOSE.

 

The language is very clear, however, I will repeat the passage for those who have difficulty understanding the passage:

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Paul is speaking of the gifts given by God the Holy Spirit. One of these gifts is Faith. You have steadfastly argued that God does not, in fact cannot, give Faith to man and you have steadfastly been wrong. Now you are deliberately denying the clear teaching of Scripture because your pride will not let you admit your error. Shame!

 

Then you are saying that "Ones Gift" is what saves the one, for we are saved through faith. If only "another" is given faith, then only "another" can be saved.

That doesn't make sense at all since God demands of man that man have faith in order to be saved!

 

Can you show me where I stated that anyone's gift saves anyone? NO! You have argued incessantly that God does not, in fact could not, give man Faith. I have posted Scripture that clearly shows you are wrong. Enough said.

 

OldRegular said,

I refer to your post of the following.

THROUGHOUT Scriptures we are clearly told that man is saved by God for having faith in God. Then you provide those scriptures about the gifts of the spirit where it is said that faith is given to some in lieu of ALL. While I agree this may support your "Doctrines of Grace" mumbojumbo, it is not biblical when compared to the whole of the bible.

If faith in God is required by God for man's salvation, and the scriptures are full of evidence in that regard, then to say that faith is given only to some goes against the FATHER'S will that NONE should perish. Jesus said that whosoever believeth (that is faitheth) in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life (Salvation). So by saying as you have through a misinterpreted scripture that faith is given to only some, you are saying that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are not in sync regarding man's redemption and salvation. That is quite impossible!

You are therefore saying by implication that the gifts of God to man are what saves man. While I agree that Salvation is the Gift of God, and that No one can be saved without faith, I cannot agree that faith is a gift of God to man. Why would he give us faith as a gift after Giving ALL of us All the reasons why we should have FAITH? That simply does not make sense! That is wasted effort on his part!

Did you actually say the words that one's gifts saves one? NO, but by implication of the posted scripture you did because it is widely known that it is through faith that we are saved.

Finally, You misuse the posted scripture, because Paul is Teaching Born again Believers about the Gifts given to Believers that cause the Body of Christ (the church) to be that, the Body of the Living Christ who is the Head of the Body.

The part that you left out goes like this

Your continual misuse of scripture indicates a complete failure to understand the message of scripture. You would be wise to refrain from offering as proof texts those that do not prove your point, and the above certainly fails to prove your point!

 

Wes

Your pathetic post above is a mixture of half truths and outright misrepresentations. I have never stated that the gift of Faith in the passage from 1 Corinthians was Saving Faith though you accused me of making that claim [see April 18, 2005 07:32 PM post above]. Regeneration and the gift of Saving Faith is discussed in Ephesians 2:1-10 as many have stated on this Forum but you refuse to believe. Instead you have steadfastly argued that God does not, IN FACT CANNOT [Item 4, your post of April 17, 2005 09:33 AM], give Faith to man and you have steadfastly been wrong. That is the reason that I posted the passage from 1 Corinthians. However, you choose to deliberately deny and distort the clear teaching of Scripture that God does give man Faith because your pride will not let you admit your error.

Furthermore, you have continually distorted my posts stating that I am implying certain unbiblical doctrines. Isn't that what you called scoundrelism?

 

True, You have never proven there is such a thing as "saving grace" And since you want to go there, here is Ephesians 2:1-10, let's take a real HONEST look at what it is saying:

And you were destined for death through the sins that you do, and the principalities and powers that you bowed to as a rebel.

Paul confesses that he and his companion(s) were just like the Romans are, living the natural life through self indulgence and personal whim, not realizing that we too, the Jews, were susceptible to God's retribution.

Paul says it is through God's grace that HE saves us.

God is rich in Grace, and because of that Grace, you have been saved through faith, being saved is not by anything of your own, but is a gift from God, Not by anything you have done so that nobody can claim the credit. 'Through grace' does not mean that Grace has any power to save, but it is God's goodness towards us (His Favor, His Grace) by giving us Christ Jesus, to atone for sin so that through faith we are saved. No we can do nothing because our salvation is a gift of God, AS STATED THROUGHOUT SCRIPTURES.

God looked on us with favor, gave us His only begotten son, so that whosoever believeth in him is given the gift of God's favor which is our salvation through faith! Grace is not the Gift of God! Neither is FAITH the Gift of God, But SALVATION which we cannot earn or merit is the Gift of God!

You'll notice there is no "Saving Grace" here, Only the 'plain jane' variety of God's Grace. Nothing at all special about the grace that man has been under for many thousands of years. Same ol' grace, Not prevenient grace, not saving grace, just ordinary every day God's grace.

You'll notice that there is no FAITH given to man here either. Man is expected to already have FAITH through Hearing the Word and Believing, Just like Jesus explained in John 3.

That takes care of Salvation, now lets look at what happens after one is born again. 1 Cor 12:1-11, ya see ya can't leave out verses 1 thru 3 else you lose the context of what Paul is saying in 4 thru 11. Furthermore if you don't include verses 12 thru 30, you miss "the rest of the story", which is the purpose for God giving gifts to the believers. And you would deprive us of some EEI (Essential Elements of Information) which could save us from False Doctrine, such as that which you've been spewing!

Now I expect you come back with some other false accusations and expect to draw a crowd into your corner. Come ahead, I'm expecting it!