Sovereign or Failure?

That's a good point, I liked it.

Let's put a bunch of huge obstacles in the way. Let's introduce a mass of powerful, trusted, influential unbelievers. Let's kill those who believe this truth. Add to that family and friends disowning someone for believing that. The threat of poverty looms over the heads of those who believe it. Your wife leaves you just because you maintain that Mr. Washington is who history or even he himself claims he is. Apply a cost to the belief and then ask: Why do people still believe in their hearts?

Christians have been killed for believing that Jesus is the Christ. Even though we are not threatened today in America (that I know of) doesn't that thought "rattle" around in the back of your mind? That one day you could be tested to that degree? Would your faith remain? Would mine?

In the spiritual realm there is a war going on. A war for the hearts and minds of men. We are born in the enemy's camp. Trained by the enemy (for a time). Somewhere down the line we learn (believe) that we are not of the enemy and are told to come out of them while still being amongst them. We needed a rescuer (a savior).

With so much against us, how can we even remotely claim that we did any of this? If we say that we made the choice then we are boasting. Aren't we? The world is full of boasting. The root of their conversation is a boast about how they have made better choices than anyone else and that is why they are richer, more powerful, happier, have more friends, more education, more knowledge, more cars, more boats, more land etc, and they are not honestly, secretly thankful for one second to God for anything they have. They obtained it through making better choices and they deserve the praise and will fight to keep what they have. If you listen carefully to their conversation you will see that their better choices are at the root of all their boasting.

Just thinking...

Dave.

 

I agree, it was just an analogy, all of them to fall short. But what if believing in Mr. Washington gave peace and abundance of life and eternal security in knowing your final destination. Many more might continue holding on to that belief and hope if they knew the true consequeses. That is why the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Where does fear fit into Calvinism? What is

 

I agree, it was just an analogy, all of them to fall short. But what if believing in Mr. Washington gave peace and abundance of life and eternal security in knowing your final destination. Many more might continue holding on to that belief and hope if they knew the true consequeses. That is why the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Where does fear fit into Calvinism? What is its purpose. In our system things like fear and jealosy provoke the will of man, how is that needed in a system to utilizes an effectual calling?

I have never met an Arminian who is willing to boast of his faith. This is a characterture that Calvinists paint of Armininans in order to discredit our beliefs.

When Paul speaks of boasting in scripture he is obviously refering to those who pursue salvation by the works of the Law, not those who pursue it by faith. So to apply passages in scripture where Paul is warning against boasting of works based salvation to Armininanism is not good hermenetics. Faith and works are not one in the same.

 

I agree. That is why I did not refer to Paul's comments. I just examined boasting in general to see if it is an issue for gentile believers too. Though I focused on the boasting of unbelievers, I did subtly imply that a believer can boast about their salvation. I meant to. I did not think that you do that at all and I still don't think it about you. I was thinking of myself when I implied that. I maintain a very high regard for you Brother Bill.

I have to be honest, when I examine my own conversation, I think I hear boasting. It's very subtle but it's there. I often promote myself and what I've accomplished and the choices I've made. So boasting does seem to exist in me and I don't come from a background of trusting in the Mosaic Law to receive favor from God. As I examine myself I have to ask myself if this type of subtle boasting is a fruit of the Spirit. Granted, I know I am out on a limb with this. I am quoting no one and these are only raw thoughts that I could not share with a single soul in real life. I just consider it food for reasonable debate.

I debate so that I might better understand myself and others, not change your mind. If I become offended, I lose the value of debating. If I offend you, I take value away from your experience. I don't want to offend you.

Dave

 

The question is why did you hear Brother Bill?... Wasn't your heart already prepared by God to receive it?... If not then how did you get it?... While you are mulling this question over tackle Jeremiah 31:31 thru 34!... Brother Glen

 

People also boast about what they naturally are, not only what they have done. Think racial/genetic superiority and other physical, mental, etc. strengths. So with our hearts (Jer.17:9), even if we think God did it and not ourselves (God made us better), there is still possibility for boasting, so this is no argument against Arminianism. The Israelites boasted in both their natural inheritace and their own works of the Law. A person who has faith may possibly start to boast for "making the right choice" (and this whether it was his own free will, or unconditional election), but then he is misguided and needs to remember that he could not be saved at all apart from God's grace.

 

But if everyone accepted that all means all, then Calvinists and Arminians wouldn't be able to argue with each other.

 

The question is why did you hear Brother Bill?... </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, let's look at the scripture to answer that question.

Who are the people in the bible who cannot "hear" the gospel? You will find that the answer is those who are hardened, not those who are born totally depraved as your system teaches. People are NOT born hardened, they become hard after hearing and refusing to obey the truth.

 

They can become hardened in the same way those in Romans 1 were hardened.

 

WE DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS.......
We didn't ask to be born......
We didn't ask to have a body of flesh.......
We didn't ask to have an inherited nature of sin.......
We didn't ask to be under the penalty of death from our birth.......
We didn't ask to be like sheep, constantly going astray.......
We didn't ask to be bound in stubbornness.......
We didn't ask to be tested by evil spirits.......
We didn't ask to be enticed with numerous temptations.......
We didn't ask to live under a curse of sickness and sin.......
We didn't ask for a life of pain, sorrows, troubles and tears.......
We didn't ask for this life on earth at all.......
SO WHY IS MAN TOLD BY PREACHERS THAT HE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS SINS, - WHEN HE RECEIVED against his will, not by his choice, AN INHERITED SIN NATURE FROM THE FIRST MAN ADAM?

 

Hiya Me2

Beautiful post

Yes, God chooses whom He chooses. And He chose the church, the ecclesia, to be lights to the world. To insure that His will is done on earth as it is in heaven. For if this not be done, even the very stones will cry out in worship to our great God and Savior - the Living Lord. Imagine, even stones - dead lifeless, breathless, bloodless things - would cry out in worship if we fail to do so. If He can make THAT happen surely He can bring all of creation to Himself - redeem it, reconcile it to Himself and restore it to perfection.

Hallelujah! ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD.

Hey, Me2, have a lovely day

GH

 

GH,

Remember the OT tabernacle and the use of incense.

it created smoke that was to seperate man and God.

Some say that the smoke of the incence created a barrier between the holiness of God and sinful man and that His holiness would destroy that which would be in his presence and not acceptable, or as holy and perfect as God himself.

for our God is a Jealous God..right? (exo 34:14)

grace in a sense is that smoke that seperates mankind and their holy God.

yet, grace in another sense keeps A holy God who calls himself, infinite love, from gathering his creation that was bought by his son's Holy Blood.

A creation groaning to return to its maker.
Its Eternal source of love.

A creation that desires to return to its loving parent. yet a parent who's desiring his creation to discover who they are, and who He is.

We are gods. learning to be gods of Love.
As Our Father IS, who is infinite Love

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

and with that note...
Have a Nice Day


Me2

 

Powerful truth you have spoken there, Diane. The logic and Biblical premise is
unassailable.

 

Hiya Kenny

Hiya Me2

May we, the church, come as little children with a simple faith in God's ability to bring about His plan to restore all creation. May we turn to Him, by His grace, and remember that as far as the curse is found, the blood of Christ covers. And may we cover each other by putting on Christ's love - compelled by His love to spread the Good News, the glad tidings of peace and goodwill toward all men. May we in simple faith believe that He can do much more than we could ever ask or imagine.

Give us understanding, Lord, that we may know you and may we know who we are in you. May we see your ongoing, immutable, redemptive will, regardless of man. You are determined and more than "able to subdue ALL THINGS UNTO YOURSELF" (Phil.3:21) that "You might FILL ALL THINGS WITH YOURSELF" [even with your own love and will] (Eph.4:10), becoming "ALL IN ALL". 1Cor.15:28. Amen.

This is the positive, ultimate goal and overall purpose of our loving God's progressive, all encompassing, omnipotent will. Only this kind of love bears all things, endures all things and cannot fail - 1 Cor.13:7,8.
Amen.

God is love and love (God) never fails.\o/

Ya know, Ken, it sure sounds unassailably logical to me as well

Yes, Me2, gods of love - little pieces of Divinity. Holy and whole in Him through LOVE. The more excellent way!

GH