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Sovereignty of God in Salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by OldRegular, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
     
  2. OCC

    OCC Guest

    This verse is hard to argue with. :(
     
  3. here now

    here now Member

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    Wes says:
    NO, I am saying that God makes us choose.

    **********************************************


    But if He 'MAKES US', then we don't have 'free will'. :D
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    For those who doubt, those who are saved had their names written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. This Scripture is verified by and a verification of the following Scripture:

    John 5:21
    21. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

    Jesus Christ gives life to whom He will. And who are these to whom He gives life? We read again from the Gospel of John.

    John 10:26-29
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand
    .

    We see that those whom Jesus Christ gives life are His sheep, no one else. In the following Scripture we learn who the Sheep of Jesus Christ are, those chosen by the Father before the foundation of the world, those whose names are written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:3-6
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    Please note it is God who has made His elect accepted in the beloved, not man.

    Romans 8:29,30.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    In the mind of God, those whom He has chosen to Salvation whose names are written in the Book of Life, are already called, justified, and glorified. That is what is meant by the Sovereignty of God in Salvation.

    The Sovereignty of God in Salvation does not mean He Sovereignly makes Salvation possible and then abdicates His Sovereignty and allows man to validate or invalidate that which He, in His Sovereignty, has already accomplished. If that were true then man, not God, would be sovereign in his salvation and unfortunately what the poet said of man would be true:

    I am the master of my fate
    I am the captain of my soul.


    If that were the case none would be saved for certainly the words of John Dagg posted earlier are true. “Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

    That Dagg's words are true is clearly taught by the Apostle Paul in Romans.

    Romans 1:18-25
    18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    If by free will you mean equal to God? You are right we do not have free will.

    If however you mean the freedom to choose from the options given to man, then you are wrong, man not only has free will, but the freedom to exercise it.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Whether or not he did it, HOW did he do it?

    Once again, Paul is teaching the Ephesians about the beginning of the church....IN the APOSTLES! Ephesians 1:3-6 is not the whole context, which is
    Eph 1:3-12. So again you take something out of context to prove your point, and that simply is not acceptable!
     
  7. OCC

    OCC Guest

    And the shouting continues...
     
  8. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    the (!) is an exclamation point used as punctuation for statements. I make statements!

    Deal with it!

    By the way, shouting is done with the mouth, my mouth has not opened except to breath....OH, fine then, I'll keep my mouth shut and my death will be on your hands!
     
  9. OCC

    OCC Guest

    :rolleyes: stop shouting dude...
     
  10. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Not shouting dude, just stating!
     
  11. OCC

    OCC Guest

    What was that Wes? I'm a little deaf now...plus I have a Mental Disorder cuz I'm not an American style conservative.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1:1-6
    1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
    2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
    3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
    11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.


    Paul is writing to the Saints which are at Ephesus, not to the Apostles at Ephesus [Verse 1]. These Saints:

    1. Were chosen, along with Paul and the Apostles, in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [verse 4].
    2. Were, along with Paul and the Apostles, to be be holy and without blame before him in love [Verse 4].
    3. Were predestinated, along with Paul and the Apostles, unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ [Verse 5].
    4. Were made accepted in the beloved , along with Paul and the Apostles [Verse 6].
    5. Were redeemed, along with Paul and the Apostles, through the blood of Jesus Christ, receiving forgiveness of their sins [Verse 7].
    6. In the fulness of time would be gathered, along with Paul and the Apostles, with all things in Jesus Christ [Verse 10; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28].
    7. Because they, along with Paul and the Apostles, have obtained an inheritance in Jesus Christ [Verse 11; Romans 8:17].
    8. All to the praise of the Glory of Jesus Christ [Verse 12].

    Now what was the requisite to be included in all the above? They must have first trusted in Christ [Verse 12]. What was the requisite for the Apostle Paul to be included in all the above? He must have first trusted in Christ [Verse 12]. What is the requisite for you and I to be included in all the above? We must have first trusted in Christ [Verse 12].

    To argue that Paul is speaking only of the Apostles in Verses 1- 12 and is including himself among these Apostles as the first who trusted in Jesus Christ is utter foolishness. Paul was not among the first who trusted in Jesus Christ. He persecuted the Church. There were at least 3000 others who preceded Paul in trusting in Jesus Christ [Acts 2:41].
     
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    i have heard many views on this passage...but this by far is the strangest. I think this is a "home made" view.

    he needs to read the book of 1peter and 2 peter and see if this holds true. if he does..i think he would change his view.

    and from my stand point...the "main verse"...is not talking about election. the subject has already changed to something that happens AFTER those are chosen
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I assume when you are talking about the main verse you are referring to Wes's misuse of verse 12. Actually I believe Verse 4 deals with election; Verses 5-12 deal with the blessings bestowed upon the elect.
     
  15. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I have not ever said that Paul is writing TO the Apostles. He is writing to the Saints at Ephesus ABOUT the mystery of the Church and Salvation beginning in verse 3 AFTER is opening Greeting in verses 1 & 2.

    Paul is explaining the BEGINNING OF THE CHURCH IN THE APOSTLES and how the APOSTLES WERE ELECTED to their roles by God the Father who Gave the apostles to Jesus (John 17 following). Then Goes on in verses 13,14 to explain to the Ephesian Saints that because of their faith in God and trust in Jesus, they (second generation believers) too are included in the church began in the Apostles (first generation believers).

    Gents, If I were you I'd do some serious introspection regarding my faith! You fail to understand a most clear passage of Scripture.

     
  16. OCC

    OCC Guest

    How come you don't shout at them?
     
  17. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    I assume when you are talking about the main verse you are referring to Wes's misuse of verse 12. Actually I believe Verse 4 deals with election; Verses 5-12 deal with the blessings bestowed upon the elect. </font>[/QUOTE]yes thanks OLDreg.

    sometimes i post before i read...

    my full view is here

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1505/9.html

    verse 12 is his main verse...that is what he pointed out many times.

    ALL is...well... i guess we means only apostles. so i guess in his view no one else gets the blessings from verse 4 - 12.

    i don't know..to strange for me.
     
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    this in 2 peter 1:10 .. is to apostles i guess am i right wes?

    i mean..in your view

    5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
     
  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    here in romans 11

    paul says israel had both elect..and non elect. so in this case elect is not talking about jews

    6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
     
  20. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    in this view that wes holds...we have more apostles than the 12. Here peter as asking all to be apostles i guess...right wes?

    1 So put away all malice and all guile and insincerity and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; 3 for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. 4 Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God's sight chosen and precious; 5 and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
     
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