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Sovereignty Question

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, May 5, 2007.

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  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    OK, God is totally sovereign, right? "If one molecule flies wild by chance, the God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. God and chance simply cannot coexist." (R.C. Sproul, The Invisible Hand)

    So what kind of sovereignty does Satan have over his "kingdom?" When Satan commands the "king of Persia" to take Babylon, why (if God is sovereign) does God have to send His angels to withstand him?

    Satan doesn't operate by "chance" but by "design" and it would appear that Satan is "outta control!" So how is God God? Or are we to say that God commands Satan who commands his demons??

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, May 5, 2007
  2. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I'm bumping this up to the top. I think the questions are good and need to be addressed.
     
    #2 Helen, May 5, 2007
  3. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    That's right.

    God is Sovereign.

    Where does Satan do this? God works through His creation as He sees fit. If He wants to run things in this way He runs things in this way, your question would still be asked if it was any other way wouldn't it? :)

    But God does does He? That is unscriptural. Satan is bound and restrained. RO 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
    ISA 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

    MT 8:8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, `Go,' and he goes; and that one,`Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, `Do this,' and he does it."
    MT 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

    john.
     
    #3 johnp., May 5, 2007
  4. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day, viz., that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death - all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10: 30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )
     
    #4 johnp., May 5, 2007
  5. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    I'm bumping this up to the top. I think the answers are brilliant and need to be addressed. :)


    john.
     
    #5 johnp., May 5, 2007
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'll second that bump.
     
    #6 npetreley, May 5, 2007
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Dan 10:13 (sorry, it was the "prince of Persia"). But how about Eph 2:2? "Times past you walked according to the prince of the power of the air...?" He has authority and sovereignty apart from God, right? Else Paul would have to say that "you walked according to the power of God," right?

    Do you understand the concept of Mt 12:25?? "A house divided against itself cannot stand? The Pharisees were saying the same thing you guys are -- basically that Jesus was actually on Satan's side. That they had the same "head" -- which would be true if God was sovereign over Satan.

    No. He controls the OUTCOMES (Joseph: "you meant it for evil but God meant it for good.") but He doesn't control the decisions, the attempts to overthrow His sovereignty.

    Satan is NOT bound until the MK. And Rom 11:36 applies to CHRISTIANS, johnp. Satan, even if he received from God, certainly doesn't worship or give back to God. All things that are sanctified return to Him --- all things that corrupt go to the "lake of fire."

    Now I have heard this one before. Some translations even say "...I create evil..." But this "disaster"/"evil" refers to chastisement (see 45:9). God caused/allowed the Babylonians to wage war against the apostate Israel, for instance.

    There you have it! The centurian had authority within his realm -- God gave it to him. But in giving it, God surrendered it regarding the centurian's realm and it was a "test." Do you know that life is a "test?"* What would the centurian do with that authority? What will YOU do with YOUR authority/sovereignty? God always being in control of the outcomes/consequences, it still was up to the centurian to make the decisions.

    Dr Rogers did a great sermon on this very issue. These were the centurian's choices to make. Nowhere does God tell the centurian what to do with his authority. Adrian compared it to our "kingdom authority" in that our prayers bring God's authority to bear on every situation. Otherwise, we are left to our own power and authority and how far do you think that goes in resolving most issues in life?

    It's like with Lucifer. God gave him authority which allowed him to make all sorts of decisions -- even wrong ones... even proud and rebellious ones. Yet Lucipher was created perfect. God used his sovereignty perversely but God controlled the outcome.

    You can deny man's sovereignty over the outcome of God's plan but you can't deny that man has limited sovereignty and that things happen outside the sovereinty of God that He must correct. Sproul (and likely the Calvinists for which he speaks) are denying the truth of scripture.

    skypair

    *Philadelphia, for instance. "Because you have kept the word of My patience; I also will keep thee from the hour of testing, which shall come upon the whole world..." Rev 3:10
     
    #7 skypair, May 6, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2007
  8. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello skypair.

    The whole world but Philly? :) I thought the whole world meant everyone ever born, funny that. Thanks for the ammo.

    A long wait. He sounds bound to me, JOB 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."...

    RO 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
    'All things' means only Christians? haha! :) Brilliant. Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Is 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. KJV. Cool or what?

    Dan 10:13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

    I see no sign of Satan. :) Is the Prince of Persia code for the Devil?

    With regard to inanimate objects again* we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )

    *As it is with animated objects so it is with inaminate objects.

    God is Sovereign. PR 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

    No, Paul need not say that. PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

    Do you mean like your Senate just losing the war for us? :)

    Then you say God isn't Sovereign.

    COL 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form...

    JOB 1:12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."...

    Satan is bound.



    john.
     
    #8 johnp., May 6, 2007
  9. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    I can't find that thing about Satan commanding the King of Persia to take Babylon in the Bible. Could somebody enlighten me?
     
    #9 J.D., May 6, 2007
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Dan 10:13.

    skypair
     
    #10 skypair, May 7, 2007
  11. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    There you go JD, all explained. :)

    john.
     
    #11 johnp., May 7, 2007
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Isn't it amazing that free-willers go ballistic about anyone who interprets "all" to mean anything other than "all" -- and they will even go so far as to interpret "many" to mean "all" in order to prop up their dead doctrines. Yet when "all" meaning "all" derails their doctrines, suddenly it means something else.

    I know free-willers claim Calvinists change the meanings of words - but this is their special baby, along with "world". "All" is the very foundation of their doctrine. All means all! Can't you see that? What? Oh...in...that..one...case....but all means all dang it!!!
     
    #12 npetreley, May 7, 2007
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I can't understand why some wish to repeat
    the mantra* "all means all" instead of discussing the
    meaning of specific verses and what all might
    mean in them.

    *mantra - a new age term: an often repeated phrase
    usually with brain washing properties

    from: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=all

    Do you believe all 17 these 'all's are always meant by 'all'
    in all occurrences in the Bible?

    And that doesn't count the idioms using 'all' :)
     
    #13 Ed Edwards, May 7, 2007
  14. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Ed, you got it right on target. It's a mantra. The phrase itself means absolutely nothing, but I believe they think that if they chant it enough, it will magically make their doctrines true.
     
    #14 npetreley, May 7, 2007
  15. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Uhhhh - yeh. :confused:

    Can you help me find Babylon, or Satan's command, in that passage? And are God's angel's (Gabriel and Michael) withstanding or being withstood? And who wins the stand-off? Isn't the winning side the sovereign side?
     
    #15 J.D., May 7, 2007
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    So "all" includes evil as God's creation? Very funny, npeterley. :laugh:

    I hope you are admitting that "all" means "all" -- cause it does.

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, May 7, 2007
  17. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Obvously. But there should be no battle if God is sovereign, eh? Are you saying God wars against Himself?

    Sovereignty means command in this case and there are opposing forces with opposing sovereignty until God controls the outcomes, as I have always said.

    skypair
     
    #17 skypair, May 7, 2007
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    It seems that "all" in each definition (except for #16 and #17) stills refers to "the whole" or "entire".

    So when the Bible says that Christ died for all men, it means ALL, as in "whole" and "entire". I still don't see that it means a portion of the "whole".
     
    #18 Amy.G, May 7, 2007
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    #19 Ed Edwards, May 7, 2007
  20. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    God raised up Pharaoh to show His power and to establish His name. There should be a war if God desires a war. God wars against evil, which He created to show His power and might. Satan is bound by the limits God has set. Satan may command his angels, but he is not sovereign. Satan is a liar because he does not have the power to achieve that which he decrees. God can not lie because He can not fail to achieve that which He has decreed. Only God is sovereign.
     
    #20 J.D., May 7, 2007
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