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Spiritual Death ,The Remedy, The Restoration of Sacred Space

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2020.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Adam's fall into spiritual and physical death resulted in All mankind being conceived, physically alive , mentally alert, but spiritually dead.
    That fall left man alienated from the life of God, without hope, and without God in the world.
    God has an eternal plan to restore that sacred space and it is being unfolded and made known to the Church.
    Eph.3:8-11.
    The Church that assembles in the Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem on the last day will be the culmination of that plan.
     
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  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You have taken Ephesians 3:8-11 out of context. An eternal purpose is mentioned there in verse 11 but nothing about restoring earth to what it was pre-Fall. Big #2 there.

    The Bible says that the earth will be destroyed, not restored, and we will dwell on a new Earth.
    Here is what happens to that "sacred space" you claim will be restored:

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
    11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
    12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


    Rev. 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your response.
    This thread is not dealing with this earth or what happens to it.
    It will be dealing with what is described as Sacred Space.
    That will be shown to be the place of God's intentions regarding His relationship with His creation,and in particular His image bearers.
    The second Peter3 passage does indicate the location and the subjects of this restoration of sacred space.
    There is some question as to the details of it, and that could be enjoyable to consider.
     
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Where do you find this phrase "Sacred Space" in the Bible?

    Ephesians 3:8-11 says nothing about a "Sacred Space". Nor is the word "restoration" to be found there. It is about Paul's mission to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles, via the church, which was God's plan all along (the "mystery".)
     
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  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That passage does not use that term.
    The passage speaks of God's eternal purpose, which was from ages ago, being made known to the Church.
    It is examining the whole revelation of God in all 66 books that we see what God has purposed for His Covenant Sons.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Itl,
    Try Acts 3:20-21.
     
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The use of the word restore can also be used in a new earth.
     
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  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    OK, the word "restore" or "restoration" is used there in a couple of translations. (KJV has "restitution".)

    I suppose it means the world will be restored to a state of sinlessness, but I can't be certain, because I don't recall any OT prophets speaking of the world being put back to a sinless state.

    What do you think the restoration in Acts 3:21 is about?
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Correct.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes sections of scripture do focus on a specific concern such as you mentioned in the gentiles coming in on equal footing as Israelites.

    Other times God has the writers give an indication of The overall purpose Accomplished at the cross, and on into the eternal state.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In an article called an idol called evangelism and it's remedy,
    Ray Hargrave said it this way.
    But now God's Redemptive purpose has supplied the necessary knowledge where man is illuminated by spiritual conviction. He is also secured by new birth to desire Above All Else the highest good, which is God glorified and enjoyed Forever by his redeemed.
    Such mighty work produces the necessary conversion, which involves turning away from sin that is repentance and turning to Salvation that is Faith found in Christ alone.
    Such Solace and peace are eternally established in that Soul, which Discover it through Grace. He experiences Christ as his own Sabbath rest.
    Once again we see the two concepts of peace and rest established .
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
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  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:10,11

    Acts 3:21 and following to end of chapter.

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10,11
     
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  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Exactly...Jesus rules as Lord of Lords, and King of kings in the midst of His enemies and on into the eternal state.
     
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  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To spiritually die is to be separated from God due to unholiness. No more and no less. All these claims of incapacitation are as bogus as a three dollar bill. The fall resulted in mankind being made sinners, thus in a separated from God sinful state. And not only is our spirit separated from God, our spirit is also corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. But even so, we can hear and understand some spiritual things, spiritual milk like the fundamentals of the gospel.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are several problems with the OP (many are assumptions and many simply oversight).


    First, before discussing Spiritual Death one must define the term. Is it simply a lack of fellowship with God? If so, then exactly when did men like Enoch gain “spiritual life”? So another term that needs to be defined is “spiritual life”.

    I believe that Scripture defines both adequately. Spiritual life is that life of the “imperishable seed”, that is, “Christ in us”. It is not a spirit of natural man but the Spirit of God (I believe the order presented in 1 Cor. 15 is correct – first the natural (Adam) and then the Spiritual (Christ) as Christ became a “life-giving Spirit). So spiritual death is a state where man is absent the Spirit. It is natural man (which Paul says comes first).

    Second, prior to discussing a state to which men were to ultimately return that state has to be defined. We cannot assume that the inverse of God's command as a pre-fall reality as that is denying the antecedent (the logic is flawed). So there is very little to stand on when it comes to redemption (if it is in fact a type of restoration) because we simply do not have enough data (Scripture) describing God's relationship to Adam pre-Fall (we do know that fellowship was disrupted by sin, and that sin separates man from God in some sense). But we cannot know the Kingdom spoken of in the Bible is what Adam experienced pre-fall in the Garden.

    Third, the idea of redemption as a remedy is problematic. While Charlton Heston played both Moses and Neville, Christ did not suffer and die as a cure for mankind. This is not a restoration but a new creation (again, first the natural and second the spiritual). Redemption freed man from the law of sin and death, but this is not a freedom Scripture speaks of pre-Fall. Until Adam ate of the fruit he was still subject to death becoming a certainty on the day he sinned. We cannot look to Redemption as the restoration of man without making Christ (and God) subject to man. Instead, Scripture speaks of redemption as a new creation and a new birth.

    Fourth, the language of “sacred space” is concerning. It is something historic Calvinism strongly rejected. It is also a post-modern evangelical movement that sought (still seeks) to blend eclectic worship with traditionalism. And, of course, it is used to describe Catholic reverence for specific locations. And of course ANE paganism (and even modern paganism) focuses highly on sacred space. Moses stood on holy ground not because of the ground but because he was in the presence of God. I doubt @Iconoclast means any of those ways of using "sacred space", but it is still an unfortunate choice of terms.

    If we are going to add to Scripture then we have to be very sure what we add is correct. In this case, I believe it is not. It may be old, but it is not biblical.

    A few interesting resources:

    Revival of the Gnostic Heresy

    The Carolingian Debate over Sacred Space

    Sacred Space

    True Gnostic Church | Creating a Sanctuary
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    There are no problems with the Op at all.

    No we are just going to go with the orthodox understanding. men sinned and died in Adam.Spiritual death, resulting in Physical death.

    Yes...you do believe that, which we know is error, but we support your right to be wrong. In fact, you have an open thread on 1cor 15....so you can discuss that over there.
    This thread is not looking to go there.

    No...we do not agree with you once again. God has given us all we need that pertains to life and godliness.

    [QUOTE]Third, the idea of redemption as a remedy is problematic.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not to millions of Christians;
    19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


    20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


    .

    No, His death Was A Covenant death for the elect.



    You have misread the OP.Again


    Not really.

    [/QUOTE]

    No link I quote is going to be pagan, or RC, or Gnostic
    You can start a thread on any and all of these topics if you want, but those are not being spoken of here.
    :Cautious
     
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Iconoclast,

    First, you really need to learn how to use the quote feature. You have been here long enough to understand how it works.

    Second, I think you mean Roy Hargrave (was a SBC pastor from FL). I have never heard of Ray Hargrave. Are you sure about the guys name?


    I think you would do better to go with Scripture rather than those men you choose to comprise your "orthodoxy".

    But to do that you have to base your argument on Scripture, not commentaries.

    Before dscussing Spiritual Death one must define the term. Is it simply a lack of fellowship with God? If so, then exactly when did men like Enoch gain “spiritual life”? So another term that needs to be defined is “spiritual life”.

    I believe that Scripture defines both adequately. Spiritual life is that life of the “imperishable seed”, that is, “Christ in us”. It is not a spirit of natural man but the Spirit of God (I believe the order presented in 1 Cor. 15 is correct – first the natural (Adam) and then the Spiritual (Christ) as Christ became a “life-giving Spirit). So spiritual death is a state where man is absent the Spirit. It is natural man (which Paul says comes first).

    Prior to discussing a state to which men were to ultimately return that state has to be defined. We cannot assume that the inverse of God's command as a pre-fall reality as that is denying the antecedent (the logic is flawed). So there is very little to stand on when it comes to redemption (if it is in fact a type of restoration) because we simply do not have enough data (Scripture) describing God's relationship to Adam pre-Fall (we do know that fellowship was disrupted by sin, and that sin separates man from God in some sense). But we cannot know the Kingdom spoken of in the Bible is what Adam experienced pre-fall in the Garden.

    The idea of redemption as a remedy is problematic. While Charlton Heston played both Moses and Neville, Christ did not suffer and die as a cure for mankind. This is not a restoration but a new creation (again, first the natural and second the spiritual). Redemption freed man from the law of sin and death, but this is not a freedom Scripture speaks of pre-Fall. Until Adam ate of the fruit he was still subject to death becoming a certainty on the day he sinned. We cannot look to Redemption as the restoration of man without making Christ (and God) subject to man. Instead, Scripture speaks of redemption as a new creation and a new birth.

    If we are going to add to Scripture then we have to be very sure what we add is correct. In this case, I believe it is not. It may be old, but it is not biblica
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    yes...Roy A. Hargrave...Ormond beach Fla. Riverbend Community church

    This presentation is scripture driven. From the first thread


    b. But the point here is to note the correlation of Eden with the “mountain of God.” Assuming a legitimate symbolic aspect to Ezekiel 28, when compared with the corresponding Exodus passages it spotlights what is indirectly evident from the creation narrative, namely that Eden – as sacred space – represented the place of divine/human encounter. Exodus calls Horeb the “mountain of God,” and it was there that God met with Moses, the sons of Israel, and later Ezekiel. But this concept is also associated with Eden, implying that, in the initial creation, it was the place of divine/human interaction. This conclusion is supported by details within the first three chapters of Genesis, as will be seen.

    1]Obviously any who just want to oppose biblical thought will never see these kinds of things or get close to truth on this. They look to secular history, or philosophy to explain away truth.

    2]
    Obviously some will declare we cannot know truth, but they can state whatever they want, and believe or not believe what is offered.
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This is a double post.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This global salvation was to be effected through the Servant’s work of vicarious atonement (53:1-12) and, as a result of it, Zion (symbolizing Yahweh’s covenant wife who bears children for him – ref. 50:1; also Hosea 2:1-23) would be restored from her desolation.

    In her restoration she would then gather in the innumerable “children” of the covenant Lord secured for Him by the atoning work of His Servant (54:1-17).


    The focal point of the Servant’s work in Isaiah’s prophecy is the recovery to God of estranged mankind.


    But, in keeping with the fact that the curse extended to the whole creation, Isaiah showed that work of recovery to reach beyond man to embrace the entire created order.

    Through His Servant, Yahweh would vanquish the curse and usher in a new creation (cf. 65:1-25, 66:5-24 with 11:1-10).

    14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

    15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

    16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

    17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

    22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

    23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

    24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

    25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
     
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