Featured Spiritually dead, yet not guilty?

All good points. I agree.:thumbsup:

I'd love to have that actual quote if you know where it is. That would come in handy.

 

Fortunately scripture states it is very much so a possibility and is a biblical fact.

Spiritually dead does not mean guilty of sin. It means you are not in union with God, and that is all. We are not born with guilt of sin upon us, as all sin is a cognitive or conscience decision. The term guilty is a judicial one and it is always applied to someone who has willingly and consciously broken the law.

Now in order to proceed here as to what is or is not biblical.. please do me one favor. Please show either of these two things:
1. We will be eternally judged according to or because of our sin nature
or
2. Where anyone in scripture is judged guilty by God while not knowing that what they did was wrong, ie. in ignorance.

I also noticed that you don't interact with any of the passages I have given especially where even Jesus stated that if one does not know they have committed sin they are NOT held as guilty. Nor did you interact with passages regarding the Law and ignorance.

Another interesting thing is to understand just what 'condemned' means? We know it is a judicial term regarding judgement of an offense that has been done. I find in scripture that we are appointed once to die and THEN the judgment..I guess my question to you is are you saying we are judged before the Judgment.

If so how can one be guilty of being able to sin but not having actually sinned themselves? The very term 'sinner' is specific in that it regards one who both has and is in sin.

Who said God can't communicate with those who are spiritually separated. However with all of these you quote they committed acts against God's command, and did so knowingly - sinned. This does not really enter into the debate in question.. more so the debate of "Does God deal with the unregenerate, and can they understand Him.

(lastly but just curious more than anything - you do realize the father Abraham is not a euphemism for God, right?)

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Exactly. The world is condemned already including all outside of Christ, and there is not one person who has not sinned, all being born in sin.

I couldn't believe the post you are referring to...well, nevermind, I actually can believe it.

 

No.. because there is a distinction between the two views, and that view is guilt and 'being' a sinner, both of which we have already discussed.

You have a point here IF this is the argument you are wishing to debate.. but it is not. They are not 'sinners' nor are they guilty. They are born separated from God, not born sinners (those who sin), nor guilty (those who have been found to have broken the law).

Agreed that would be 'one conclusion' IF we were discussing this position.

Again, you are not debating this position so your conclusion bears little merit to argument you set forth. But I do agree we (being sinners) ARE dead in our trespasses and sins. But we do note that all are dead/separated.

2Cr 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

 

Please note the passage does not state they 'were already condemned' but because of their rejection of only person and thing what can save them, they are condemned 'already' (before the judgment). Thus their condemnation is the result of rejection of the truth, same as seen in
2 Thes 2:10-12 "

And many other passages in like manner...

 

Here is the link...
Now regarding his view.. he holds that even infants are sinners and guilty but speaks to my view that they are not culpable and thus can not be judged.

And here is the last portion to part 1:

Here is the 2nd part to it

And from Tom Chillies; "What Happens to Children Who Die?" from here:

 

These are nice emotional sentiments, but they cannot undo romans 3:23....at conception babies are guilty sinners, having sinned in adam. They are guilty and condemned as all men are ...and need God's mercy and forgiveness to enter heaven.....they do not become sinners when they sin by their own experience.....those are additional sins for sure....but they are sinners from conception.

He does not know the extent of God's election...He has no verse that says it extends to all,some, none...he is emotionally speculating.....We are better served to leave this to God and His decree.....

All ELECT infants dying in infancy......there can be no issue taken with this statement.
Sins done in ignorance are still sins nonetheless.....

 

MacArthur was doing alright until he said this. Is it necessarily true that one physically (not spiritually) dies because they are a sinner?

When Adam and Eve sinned, God made skins to cover them. It is assumed God had to kill an innocent animal(s) to clothe them. Did the animal commit sin? NO. The animal(s) died as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam and Eve's sin.

When Adam and Eve sinned, it brought disorder and chaos into the physical world. This introduced disorders and disease. Many children die before birth because of this, not because of any sin they have committed. Paul proves that children, or at least unborn children have committed no sin in Rom 9:11.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

MacArthur is correct, being a "sinner" is a term of judgment.

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

MacArthur is also correct that men are only judged according to their works, and not their nature. I have been saying this for two years here at BB.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Romans 9:11 says Esau and Jacob had DONE neither good or evil, therefore they cannot be judged sinners. If a baby dies before being born, it is not a sinner, and it's death does not prove it is a sinner, the baby died as a consequence of the chaos and disorder sin brought into the world.

David's child died very soon after being born, he had committed no sin and was not a sinner. The baby died as a consequence of David's sin, not his own.

Abel died as a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own. I am not saying that Abel was not a sinner like all of us, but his death was a consequence of Cain's sin, not his own.

I am glad to see MacArthur is putting his Reformed books down and reading the Bible, he quoted many of the same verses (Deut 1:39, Jon 4:11) that I have been showing here for 2 years.

If he keeps studying, he will find the scriptures show man is born spiritually alive, not dead.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

If we are born dead and separated from God, then it could never be said we are alive AGAIN. But this is exactly what Jesus himself said.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Give MacArthur a few more years, and maybe he will tell you what I am telling you now.

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh: nope....as you mis-use every verse you just posted...you have each one wrong......but...nice consistency:thumbsup:

 

Yes, you hear folks say all sorts of false things like, "all men sinned in Adam" and then they quote 1 Cor 15:22 as their proof text.

This verse does not say men sinned in Adam, it says in Adam all die. It is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the entire theme of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of our physical bodies.

This is the one and only time in all of scripture that the term "in Adam" is used (look for yourself). But folks like Icon take it out of context and abuse it to attempt to proof text false doctrine.

At least MacArthur is starting to come around, so I guess there is hope for some.

 

I have posted three times to you in particular that romans 3 :23 shows we All died at the moment Adam died........you reject it.....as for winman....he posts the same verses..woefully out of context.....he does it 98 out of 100 times.
Many have pointed it out to him....but he persists as you do with a complete misunderstanding of Romans 5.
You cannot stand when you see the truth of Romans 5.....you do mental gymnastics to avoid the clear teaching...

An example of a profitable post are the ones where I quote a bible teacher that gives line upon line of solid biblical teaching.....you cannot answer the teaching at all...not even close....so what do you do....your usual MO is a one line quip........like ...looks like philosophy here...or...a debate fallacy...or then there is your old stand by...non sequitor....

When you are challenged on your posts...you hide away like an ostritch after you post your little one line smart aleck kind of sentence. I think you can offer much more...but you would rather spend your time pleading for a moderator to censor those you do not agree with.

Read through your old posts...lets say the last 50-75...tell me i am wrong!

I do not always agree with Allan...and yet, he will offer many solid thoughts that are based in truth.....he responds with many good verses ...in context..so that anyone who can read the exchange can weigh it out.

Look at Allans responses...then look at how you respond

I have my share of bad posts...yes, for sure...but until you post anything substantial...you have lost credibility.

 

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Right. But your beloved John MacArthur quotes the very same scripture and makes the very same arguments I have presented here for over 2 years.

I have shown all of these verses many times, Jon 4:11, Isa 7:16, Deut 1:39, and many others over the past 2 1/2 years and said that children are not held accountable for sin. I have argued as MacArthur agrees that no one is born a sinner, but becomes a sinner when they actually sin.

You are too smart to listen to a regular Christian like me, but you are all ears when one of your beloved Reformed authors speaks.

MacArthur is getting there, but he is not quite there yet. Like Spurgeon, he sees scripture does not support Reformed theology and so compromises, yet tries to maintain his theology. Perhaps he will do better than Spurgeon and completely come out of false doctrine, but that is doubtful. He contradicts himself and says children are born sinners, but also says no one is a sinner until they actually commit sin. Contradiction, the trademark of Calvinism.

Maybe someday you will see scripture does not agree with Reformed theology, but I am not going to hold my breath.

 

Winman,

I like Spurgeon and macarthur quite a bit,and have learned much from both men ,and will continue to learn more from them both.

As much as I like them...they are both wrong here...without biblical warrant.

You picked up on the contradiction.....that is because mentally and spiritually, they see the scriptural truth of all being dead in adam....but because we speak of infants/children....they answer emotionally and go off.

Winman...in the other thread.....you believe i mis-use 1cor 15...but that is because you fail to see that natural men...are born in adam{first death} and if they remain in that condition....they die in adam{going into second death} at the white throne.....natural men...do not "put Themself" in adam...they are born physically alive, mentally alert, but spiritually dead....

They remain in the realm of death,unless God regenerates them...that is unless God has elected them to salvation.

This is a wise move on your part{not holding your breath}...for that day will never come.....in fact ....if I waver on this...i will instruct my sons to shoot me...before I become a complete apostate...so that my soul might be saved......but it will not happen anytime soon...I can assure you!

 

Spiritually dead and not guilty, that is ridiculous. The only way we can be Spiritually alive and not guilty is in Jesus Christ. Ours sins and lawless acts He will remember no more.

Jesus tells us Satan is the deceiver and Satan is the murderer from the beginning and Peter says some how people misunderstand Paul teaching to their own destruction like they do with other scriptures.

We have been following the deceiver murderer from the the beginning.

Satan and King Tyre which is referring to man they were blameless the day they were created until wickedness was found in them Lucifer and King Tyre who is us.

Adam and Eve was good, created blameless and had no evil thoughts in them until the serpent the deceiver, the liar, the murderer gave them one.

We and the angels are free agents and are responsible for our action even one's that did not come from ourselves but who we follow.

We can go on and believe the liar, the deceiver, the murderer. We are following one who's only desire is to murderer us and see our destruction.

God through Jesus has given us a way out, through Jesus He has placed life and death before us. To trust in Jesus and live by coming to Him eat of His flesh drink of His blood or I will perish and continue to destruction where I have been headed from the beginning.

We are responsible free agents.

The murderer is Satan and salvation is in Jesus alone.

1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

***takes deep breath***

Another breath of fresh air post, Brother.

You know you might been in trouble on here since I am agreeing with you.

 

First off, you'd better duck if you are in agreement with me....:smilewinkgrin:

The problem is, that when the bible speaks of mankind, there are two men that it does refer to; the inner man/soul, and the outer man/physical body. The physical is in Adam, and it will die and moulder back to the dust whether it be of a saint or sinner. Nothing will cause it to not die. When Adam sinned, the curse was placed upon the fleshly man. Now, the soul comes from God. Look at this passage that gets used, misused, and abused:

Look at all the "my", "mine" and "I" that David uses in this passage. He then goes on to write in verse five what he did. What is conceived in conception? It's the fleshly man/physical body, and God then places a soul in that conceived body. The soul has nothing to do with conception, and therefore, it has nothing to do with Adam's sin. It's when we knowingly and willfully sin against God, that He accounts/imputes sin unto us, and then we die spiritually. If the soul is created dead, then God would be the Author of sin, which He is not.

 

That's a pretty good post there, bro.