Splitting Hairs?

I would like to have you clearly define what you mean by "often" and "faithfully". But I would agree that 'MVs' are not perfect and may exhibit poor or questionable renderings at places, but overall I have found most 'MVs' do accurately reflect the underlying original language texts that they chose and within the boundries of their translation methodology. Certainly, the KJV is not completely free of poor or questionable renderings due to not following the Greek TR or Hebrew MT strictly.

 

It sounds like in your estimation the further a translation goes away from 'word-for-word' the less "faithful" you think it is. Is that an accurate appraisal of your position? For example, do you think that a "faithful" Bible paraphrase is possible?

 

Do you really believe the ESV hype-machine that it is largely a word-for-word translation?

 

Do we not paraphrase a lot of the Bible when we preach? Why do we do that? Only one reason, we are trying to get the message across as clearly as we possibly can. Paraphrase. Yes it can be relatively accurate.

The word for word versions make for better sermons though...In te first,,,,secondly,,,thirdly and conclusion,,,the basic sermon.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Of how many differences between the Oxford and Cambridge editions of the KJV are you aware? There are three or more varying Cambridge editions of the KJV in print today: the Cambridge Standard Text Edition, the 1873 Cambridge edition by Scrivener reprinted in Zondervan KJV editions today, and the 2005 Cambridge edition edited by David Norton.

Consider a present day KJV that is published by Cambridge University Press in Great Britain [ISBN 0-521-50882-7]. It is identified as a "standard text edition." It differs from the standard text in the Oxford edition of the KJV in the Scofield Bible in several places. This Cambridge edition has “spirit of God“ (Gen. 1:2) for “Spirit of God,” “instructor“ (Gen. 4:22) for “instructer,” "assuaged" (Gen. 8:1) for "asswaged," "plucked" (Gen. 8:11) for "pluckt," “Sabtecha“ (Gen. 10:7) for “Sabtechah,” "mortar" (Gen. 11:3) for "morter," “theirs“ (Gen. 15:13, 34:23, 43:34) for “their‘s,” “fetched“ (Gen. 18:7) for “fetcht,” “entreat“ for “intreat“ (Gen. 23:8), “Abida“ (Gen. 25:4) for “Abidah,” “ours“ (Gen. 26:20, 31:16, 34:23) for “our‘s,” “chestnut“ (Gen. 30:37) for “chesnut,” "aught" (Gen. 39:6, 47:18) for "ought," “today“ (Gen. 40:7) for “to day,” “spirit of God“ (Gen. 41:38) for “Spirit of God,” “Zerah“ (Gen. 46:12) for “Zarah,” “basins“ (Exod. 24:6) for “basons,” "veil" (Exod. 26:31) for "vail," “men children“ (Exod. 34:23) for “menchildren,” "plaster" (Lev. 14:42) for "plaister," "plastered" (Lev. 14:43) for "plaistered," "crookbacked" (Lev. 21:20) for "crookbackt," “jubilee“ (Lev. 25:9) for “jubile,” “mixed“ (Num. 11:4) for “mixt,” “ours“ (Num. 32:32) for “our‘s,” “aught“ (Deut. 4:2) for “ought,” “yours“ (Deut. 11:24) for “your‘s,” “awl“ (Deut. 15:17) for “aul,” “hers“ (Deut. 21:15) for “her‘s,” "rearward" (Josh. 6:9, 13) for "rereward," “Jahazah“ (Josh. 13:18) for “Jahaza,” "or Sheba" (Josh. 19:2) for "and Sheba," “Hapharaim“ (Josh. 19:19) for “Haphraim,” “spirit“ (Jud. 3:10) for “Spirit,” “wondrously“ (Jud. 13:19) for “wonderously,” "steadfastly" (Ruth 1:18) for "stedfastly," “hasted“ (1 Sam. 17:48) for “hastened,” “spirit“ (1 Sam. 19:20, 2 Sam. 23:2) for “Spirit,” “inquired“ (1 Sam. 22:13) for “enquired,” “Malchi-shua“ (1 Sam. 31:2) for “Melchi-shua,” “aught“ (2 Sam. 3:35) for “ought,” “Shammua“ (2 Sam. 5:14) for “Shammuah,” “Shimea“ (2 Sam. 21:21) for “Shimeah,” “spirit“ (2 Sam. 23:2) for “Spirit,” “Naharai“ (2 Sam. 23:37) for “Nahari,” "ceiling" (1 Kings 6:15) for "cieling," “the LORD“ (1 Kings 8:56) for “the Lord,” “spirit“ (1 Kings 18:12, 22:24) for “Spirit,“ “inquire“ (1 Kings 22:8) for “enquire,” “hers“ (2 Kings 8:6) for “her‘s,” "the LORD" (2 Kings 19:23) for "the Lord," “housetops“ (2 Kings 19:26) for “house tops,” “Ezer“ (1 Chron. 1:38) for “Ezar,” “Geshan“ (1 Chron. 2:47) for “Gesham,” “Achsah“ (1 Chron. 2:49) for “Achsa,” “Salchah“ (1 Chron. 5:11) for “Salcah,” “Shimron“ (1 Chron. 7:1) for “Shimrom,” “Shemida“ (1 Chron. 7:19) for “Shemidah,” “Jehoshua“ (1 Chron. 7:27) for “Jehoshuah,” “Michah“ (1 Chron. 23:20) for “Micah,” “Jeshua“ (1 Chron. 24:11) for “Jeshuah,” "floats" (2 Chron. 2:16) for "flotes," "ceiled" (2 Chron. 3:5) for "cieled," “spirit“ (2 Chron. 15:1, 18:23, 20:14, 24:20) for “Spirit,” “Ezion-geber“ (2 Chron. 20:36) for “Ezion-gaber,” "sin" (2 Chron. 33:19) for "sins," “Carchemish“ (2 Chron. 35:20) for “Charchemish,” “Mispar“ (Ezra 2:2) for “Mizpar,” “Asnappar“ (Ezra 4:10) for “Asnapper,” "O LORD" (Neh. 1:11) for "O Lord," “LORD“ (Neh. 3:5) for “Lord,” "entreated" (Job 19:17) for "intreated," “spirit“ (Job 33:4) for “Spirit,” “grayheaded“ (Ps. 71:18) for “greyheaded,” “wits‘ end“ (Ps. 107:27) for “wit‘s end,” "vapour" (Ps. 148:8) for "vapours," “two-edged“ (Ps. 149:6) for “twoedged,” "inquiry" (Prov. 20:25) for "enquiry," “gray“ (Prov. 20:29) for “grey,” “further“ (Eccl. 8:17) for “farther,” “rearward“ (Isa. 52:12) for “rereward,” “noonday“ (Isa. 58:10) for “noon day,” “cloak“ (Isa. 59:17) for “cloke,” "holy spirit" (Isa. 63:10) for "holy Spirit," "whom ye" (Jer. 34:16) for "whom he," "portray" (Ezek. 4:1) for "pourtray," “spirit“ (Ezek. 11:5, 24) for “Spirit,” “Kerioth“ (Amos 2:2) for “Kirioth,” "flieth" (Nah. 3:16) for "fleeth," “inquired“ (Matt. 2:7) for “enquired,” "Spirit" (Matt. 4:1) for "spirit," "theirs" (Matt. 5:3) for "their's," “aught“ (Matt. 5:23) for “ought,” "cloak" (Matt. 5:40) for "cloke," “Son of David“ (Matt. 9:27) for “son of David,” "lunatic" (Matt. 17:15) for "lunatick," "sponge" (Matt. 27:48) for "spunge," “Spirit“ (Mark 1:12) for “spirit,” “further“ (Mark 1:19) for “farther,” "yours" (Luke 6:20) for "your's," “havoc“ (Acts 8:3) for “havock,” “inquiry“ (Acts 10:17) for “enquiry,” “grafted“ (Rom. 11:23) for “graffed,” “graft” (Rom. 11:23) for “graff,“ “instructors“ (1 Cor. 4:15) for “instructers,” “entreaty” (2 Cor. 8:4) for “intreaty,“ “entreat” (Phil. 4:3) for “intreat,“ “cloak“ (2 Tim. 4:13) for “cloke,” “Nicolaitans“ (Rev. 2:6, 15) for “Nicolaitanes,” “Spirit of life” (Rev. 11:11) for “spirit of life,“ “alas, that” (Rev. 18:16) for “alas that,“ and "chrysolite" (Rev. 21:20) for "chrysolyte."

 

I agree that a true paraphrase is not a translation because it wouldn't be directly from the ancient languages (technically a paraphrase is a text being reworded within the same language); in addition, a paraphrase does invite more opportunity for editor interpretation. But I think a paraphrase can be objectively faithful or unfaithful to its source text. I wouldn't recommend a paraphrase as a primary Bible, especially for study.

 

F.F. Bruce,Kenneth Wuest and that Hammond guy who put his paraphrase right next to the KJV text in the 17th century all worked from the original languages.All paraphrasers are not Kenneth Taylors.

 

Hi HankD

You said.......

But God said......

and

and

and

and

and

and

Who should I believe?

 

Nice list of verse - precious promises from God - but what do they have to do with English translations?

 

Yeah,it's not like :"Forever O Lord,thy KJV Elizabethan wording alone is set in stone never to be altered in heaven."

 

Hello C4K

You asked.......

Well we are talking about, English translations of the Bible, and God’s promise to preserve it for us(all of us, even those who only speak English).

And the repeated statement on this forum, that “no Bible is perfect”, flies in the face of God’s promise.

 

While I certainly do not think one has to 'like' any translation or version, why would you not consider The Message to be a Bible?

Last time I checked, it was a translation of the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible, albeit a very free translation, as to style and translation philosophy, and as far as I can tell, makes no attempt to deliberately "mistranslate" selected passages on any doctrinal (or otherwise) bias, something I cannot say for the NWT, JST, or Cotton Patch Books, for example, just as I cannot say the same for any 'gender neutral' translation, which would attempt to remove the Biblical distinctives. I admit I could be wrong about this, but have not seen it demonstrated, as of yet, only commented against.

For an example of something somewhat along these lines, one would be hard pressed to have found a more ardent defender and advocate of 'Dispensational Theology' than John Nelson Darby. Yet I suggest that one can find no evidence of this in the DARBY translation.

Do I generally prefer the MSG? Not at all, but occasionally, it will actually translate the sense of a particular passage better than most, and I will cite it when that seems to be the case, just as I will cite any other version, in any similar instance.

"How good, any version generally is?" or overall "How accurately any version does translate (or paraphrase) something?" are entirely different questions than whether or not it is a translation or a Bible.

Ed

 

So why then, why can I not claim those exact same verses for the Bishop's Bible or the Geneva Bible and reject the KJV?

Or why can I not claim those exact same verses for my NKJV?

All of them contain those same passages.

You yourself claim that the KJV 1611 is perfect, down to every jot and tittle. To be consistent that would mean even the 1611 spellings. Do you then refer to Jesus as the "Sonne of God"? IF every jot and tittle is perfectly preserved in the 1611 KJV then are you not taking away from scripture when you refer to the 'Son of God' and adding to it when you add 'of God' when quoting 1 John 5v12 in later editions of the KJV?

 

Are you willing to make the same claim for the WSX, WYC, TYN, MCB, Matthew's, GREAT, BISH or GEN that you appear to keep effectively making for the KJV?

No??

Imagine that.

Ed

 

Sorry, C4K.

I do not mean to attempt to 'trump' your post, here, but it was not up when I started composing my own.

Ed