St. Patrick's Day Revisited

I have looked into this particular book, not in great detail mind you.

The church was RC for centuries till they built a new church in the 1850s and the church was 'resanctified' as COI. The church is called The Church of St David. It is a beautiful place.

I would never claim to be an expert on Patrick, but I do consider him one of my heroes of the faith. I find it difficult to be dogmatic about tying him to baptistic practices.

I do not, by any means, think he was Roman in his belief or practice.

 

Interesting to me is the fact that St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin City is also CoI and not RC. Also it is said to be built on the site of one of Patrick's wells. Also from my understanding, His writing were found in [i believe] a CoI as well, not in the possession of the RCC.

Yes I would agree with the fact that Patrick cannot be proved to be a Baptist in todays terms, however, it does seem that He was baptistic as far as Baptism and definitely NOT RC.

 

It is very difficult to tie Patrick to any baptist church, but no question he presented baptistic doctrines. I have 5 books on Patrick and all but one make the baptistic connection.

There are also questions about his life. Some have him born in Scotland to a parent that was a minister, Presbyterian in doctrine. Then he was taken prisoner to Ireland, but later escaped to Wales, where he was theologically educated under the Welsh Methodists ("reformed" in doctrine and somewhat "baptistic". He then went to Ireland in mission and planted many churches.

The pope, realizing the importance of Patrick's name in Ireland, made him a saint, despite the fact that he was never RC.

In a little book Roger sent to me, the author has Patrick growing up in Glastonbury, England, and there he was connected with Glastonbury Abbey. In his words, "It was home to a plethora of cults, and was the goal of many pilgrims in the Middle Ages." (St. Patrick; His Life and Legend, Hector McDonnell.)

I wouldn't want to stake my life on a lot of the historical records. They seem so tilted in one direction or another.

Cheers,

Jim

 

"On the occasion of his first visit to Rathcrogan, the royal seat of the kings of Connaught, situated near Tulsk, in the County of Roscommon, a remarkable incident occurred, recorded in many of the authentic narratives of the saint's life. Close by the clear fountain of Clebach, not far from the royal abode, Patrick and his venerable companions had pitched their tents and at early dawn were chanting the praises of the Most High, when the two daughters of the Irish monarch — Ethne, the fair, and Fedelm, the ruddy — came thither, as was their wont, to bathe. Astonished at the vision that presented itself to them, the royal maidens cried out: "Who are ye, and whence do ye come? Are ye phantoms, or fairies, or friendly mortals?" St. Patrick said to them: "It were better you would adore and worship the one true God, whom we announce to you, than that you would satisfy your curiosity by such vain questions." And then Ethne broke forth into the questions:

"Who is God?"
"And where is God?"
"Where is His dwelling?"
"Has He sons and daughters?"
"Is He rich in silver and gold?"
"Is He everlasting? is He beautiful?"
"Are His daughters dear and lovely to the men of this world?"
"Is He on the heavens or on earth?"
"In the sea, in rivers, in mountains, in valleys?"
"Make Him known to us. How is He to be seen?"
"How is He to be loved? How is He to be found?"
"Is it in youth or is it in old age that He may be found?"

But St. Patrick, filled with the Holy Ghost, made answer:

"God, whom we announce to you, is the Ruler of all things."
"The God of heaven and earth, of the sea and the rivers."
"The God of the sun, and the moon, and all the stars."
"The God of the high mountains and of the low-lying valleys."
"The God who is above heaven, and in heaven, and under heaven."
"His dwelling is in heaven and earth, and the sea, and all therein."
"He gives breath to all."
"He gives life to all."
"He is over all."
"He upholds all."
"He gives light to the sun."
"He imparts splendour to the moon."
"He has made wells in the dry land, and islands in the ocean."
"He has appointed the stars to serve the greater lights."
"His Son is co-eternal and co-equal with Himself."
"The Son is not younger than the Father."
"And the Father is not older than the Son."
"And the Holy Ghost proceeds from them."
"The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are undivided."
"But I desire by Faith to unite you to the Heavenly King, as you are daughters of an earthly king."

The maidens, as if with one voice and one heart, said: "Teach us most carefully how we may believe in the Heavenly King; show us how we may behold Him face to face, and we will do whatsoever you shall say to us."

And when he had instructed them he said to them: "Do you believe that by baptism you put off the sin inherited from the first parents."

They answered: "We believe."

"Do you believe in penance after sin?"

"We believe."

"Do you believe in life after death?" Do you believe in resurrection on the Day of Judgement?"

"We believe."

"Do you believe in the unity of the Church?"

"We believe."

Then they were baptized, and were clothed in white garments. And they besought that they might behold the face of Christ. And the saint said to them: "You cannot see the face of Christ unless you taste death, and unless you receive the Sacrifice." They answered: "Give us the Sacrifice, so that we may be able to behold our Spouse." And the ancient narrative adds: "when they received the Eucharist of God, they slept in death, and they were placed upon a couch, arrayed in their white baptismal robes."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm


Hmmm...
He believed in:
1) Baptismal regeneration
2) Penance after sin
3) One unified church
4) The Real presence in the Lord's Supper

If he wasn't a Catholic, then he missed a pretty good oportunity. He doesn't sound very Baptist to me.

Thanks,
WM

 

I like the green beer.

 

Jim, my Welsh family always taught me that Patrick was Cymry..... but this works too.......Wife is half Scots so as long as he's Celtic....LOL

There will also be current cakes fresh made in this house for St Dewi) David along with fresh daffodils

 

I prefer it thick, sudsy & brown

 

This proves my point. Everyone claims Patrick and has supposed evidence to back it up.

The only two two trustworthy works are by Patrick himself - everything else is guesswork.

 

And so then, where does he say he is from? honestly didnt read much of the OP.

 

Quote: May 1st, Dewi Sant Day
--------------------------------------------

How did I mistakenly type that one. Dydd Gwyl is and always has been March 1st!!!!!

If one reads enough of Patrick, you will find a mixture of theology. Hence, many of us say "baptistic". Notice "baptistic" and not baptist. The baptismal regeneration is common to Church of England theology and much reformed beliefs. It is meant to rid the newborn of original sin only. The parents are then to guide the child into saving faith. In the Church of England, these children are to be led to saving faith at Confirmation. It still reads much the same in the Prayer Book. Most evangelical Anglicans deviate from this however, and lead all to faith in Jesus Christ as one's personal Saviour.

It is thought that Patrick too his evangelical theology to Ireland from his Welsh influence, which was probably the evangelical Methodist church in Wales....it baptized by immersion, taught a personal relationship with Christ.

There were bound to be viewpoints that differ with us baptists to-day, but then we differ with each other in many respects.

In my opinion, he was never part of the Church of Rome.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Somehow Jim, the Welsh relatives always knew this. Be well Brother!

 

Some of his views were baptistic, some not so much.

Remember that many CoI churches are 'resanctified' Catholic churches. They became Church of England when England basically outlawed Catholicism here.

 

Can you give actual quotes from his own writings that you believe are not baptistic or are contrary to true Bible doctrine?

Yes that is true of the CoI, and St. Patricks Cathedral in particular (in Dublin city), but we don't know that that was the case when first built...from my understanding it was built on the site of a former church & well of Patricks. And lets not forget that during Patricks time the RCC, CoI, Methodist or any such denomination did not exist and from Patrick's own writings he could never be proved to be RC and he has never been officially canonized as one of theirs. He bears the title of "The Patron Saint of Ireland" however, he has never officially been made a "Saint." He also cannot dogmatically be proved to be "Baptist" as we know it, but it is certain from his own writings that he was a true believer and did not believe in baptismal regeneration. The burden of proof would be on those to prove other wise. If anything I believe what we see from the RCC is a rewriting of history to claim Patrick, but when they found his writings, they
proved otherwise. Also, Roman Catholicism did not have a real foothold in Ireland until the British Protestants told them they could not practice it, and tried to force all to be Protestant. The result was/is the saying "to be Irish is to Catholic" and led to much Political/Religious turmoil in Ireland.

This is all very sad in the fact that again what we see in the history of Ireland is that many through the evils of Political/Religious domination have lost the "Truth" (mostly) and many have perished because of it.

I personally believe that the Truth was one time the "Light in Ireland" and the Gospel did reach it through Patrick as well as others before him, then the darkness came in the form of False Religion and made worse by Political/Religious fightings that have caused that darkness to have such a stronghold for so many years that the people think that it is the light. How sad.

Jesus is the Light of the World....that is what Patrick taught and held up to the Irish so long ago and many came to that Light and were saved. I believe Patricks writings are a witness to this fact.

History is history....and the Present is the Present....good to know you as well as others are in Ireland holding up the Light of the Truth of the Gospel.

 

'Contrary to Bible doctrine?' Why would I ever claim that? As a missionary pastor in Ireland Patrick is one of my 'heroes of the faith.'

He was a true believer. He had a burden for the people of Ireland. Some of what he writes might be seen as 'baptistic' but there is nothing in his writings to suggest that he was truly a baptist.

Yes, he baptised adults, but the Roman church also did that for many many years. Do you have any evidence that he believed that the Lord's Table was only symbolic? Do you have any evidence that he believed in the autonomy of the local church? Do you know where he wrote of the priesthood of all believers? The separation of church and state?

I have no doubt that Patrick is my brother in Christ. His writings about this land inspire me to greater service. He shared with me a desire to see the Lord's return and a burden to see Irish people saved. I don't accept that he was a disciple of the Roman Church. But I have a hard time seeing how we, or any other denomination, can claim that he was one of us.

The Celtic Church that grew up after Patrick was not Roman - there is no doubt about that. But within just a couple of generations the Celtic Church began adopting the practices of the paganism of Ireland. Celtic gods and goddesses were adopted into the Celtic Church as saints. Some of the pagan gods appear on the walls and carving of the Celtic Church. For the most disgusting of these Google 'sheela na gig.' One of these is carved into a crypt in an ancient church about 10 miles from here.

Patrick had a heart for the people of this island, but it appears that he did not spend much time discipling them and the church that was founded by the people led to the Lord by him seemingly never totally forsook their paganism.

Patrick was a great man of God, but he was not perfect and I cannot see anything to indicate that he would be at home in what we know as Baptist churches.

Patrick did bring light to this island. But apart from the short lived bright glimmer of light this land has been locked in a darkness that is palpable. May God give those Christian living here Patrick like hearts to share our faith. May we continue on then to faithfully teach them the word of God to see this land purged of the awful darkness that Patrick experienced all those years ago.

 

Glad you bumped this, Salty.

I have borrowed an article from Ben Stratton's Yahoo site, Landmark Southern Baptists. It's long, so I won't quote extensively from it.

Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LandmarkSouthernBaptist/message/106