Statues

This seems like philosophy without any biblical support in order to make the bible say what someone wants it to say.

Does the bible say that the angel statues were only for instructional purposes?
Does it say that this exception for 'instructional purposes' can only be used with specific permission from God?
Can you find other examples in scripture where God gives specific exceptions where his people are told to break his commandments?

 

The Bible explicitly states that EVERYTHING having to do with the tabernacle/temple and all of its furniture/objects were to be specifically built after a pattern given by God. Moreover, everything instructed to be built had a specific purpose for instruction.



Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Ex 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Ex 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount. {which…: Heb. which thou wast caused to see}

Nu 8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

Jos 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you.

Ex 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Ex 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

Nu 8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

Jos 22:28 Therefore said we, that it shall be, when they should so say to us or to our generations in time to come, that we may say again, Behold the pattern of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifices; but it is a witness between us and you.


1Ch 28:11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

1Ch 28:12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

1Ch 28:18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

1Ch 28:19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.


Well, what do you thing? Philosophy or Scripture?

 

You have lots of bible quotes but none of them address my specific questions:

Does the bible say that the angel statues were only for instructional purposes? - none of them say "instructional only! Do not pray in front of this ark, it is for instructional purposes only."

Does it say that this exception for 'instructional purposes' can only be used with specific permission from God? - no, in fact none of them even speak of this being instructional only, and none of them suggest that specific permission is needed to make a statue of an angel, or that this was a one-time-only exception.

Can you find other examples in scripture where God gives specific exceptions where his people are told to break his commandments? - Nothing in your bible verses says anything about an exception to the commandment. There was no hint that anyone even considered there might be an exception required to make a statue of an angel.

 

You are missing the major point. EVERYTHING was built by direct command of God and EVERYTHING was built according to a pattern given them directly By God.

Who directed Rome to build their statues and who directed them how to build them?

My point between idolatry and Biblical images is that Biblical images are explicitly God directed God designed images.

No so with Romes!!! Religious images built by man without God's direct command or pattern are IDOLS. The Second Command does not condemn God directed and God patterned images but it does condemn man directed and man commanded religious images.

 

No you are missing the point. God cannot sin and if God declairs something is a sin then commands men to do that very thing he is fickle and contradictory. It makes God the Author of sin.

 

Your position is that God gives his people commandments, then gives them specific instructions to break the commandments, and its okay to break them when God gives specific permission.

This makes a complete joke of divine law. It implies that the laws are inherently flawed and require God to make exceptions to work around the laws because of their flaws.

 

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


Does this verse forbid God from making religious images or does it forbid man from making religious images?

The arguments that are built around images God commanded and designed to be built does not have any basis to support religious images that God did not command or designed but were commanded and designed by men.

Rome's images were not commanded or designed by God but by men and thus in volation to Exodus 20:4-5

 

WRONG! That is what YOU say that it is. Idolatry is the act of worshiping a thing/creature that the object is or represents in lieu of the Living God. To worship such is to make a conscious decision to commit an act of rebellion against Him. That is not what Catholics will tell you they are doing. That is NOT what the RCC teaches. That is NOT what is in the Catechism. This is what YOU wish/hope/yearn that they do so as to justify hating others who disagree with your particular (and fallible) skewed interpretations. How utterly sad for you.

WM

 

Either you have a problem with reading or you are intentionally perverting and distorting my position.

Men are simply forbidden to do what God alone can do. God alone commands certain images to be built for certain religious purposes. Exodus 20:4-5 forbids men to command and design images for religious purposes.

Exodus 20:4-5 is not a prohibition placed on God but on men. Rome built and designed their religious images in direct disobedience to Exodus 20:4-5 as God did not command or design their religious images.

 

1) are Cheribum angels above in heaven?
2) are the Cheribum that are made on the lid of the are graven images?

according to you and others this is a sin to make statues or images according to the passage you quoted Yet God instructs men to go against this commandment thus making men sin which means God is the author of sin

Unless....You admit that it isn't the images themselves or the bowing down themselves that are an issue. What is the issue? Making them gods in place of God therefore religeous statues and pictures are ok because God does it. You've misinterpreted the passage and focused on graven images and bowing down. Thats no the import. God doesn't want us to have other gods. He could care less about religeous statues and pictures.

 

God did not make the angels on the ark, a man did.

So, your position is that God instructs men, at certain times, to do things which go against the commandments. Men are allowed to do these things when instructed, because God gave them permission, and God can give them this permission because God isn't bound by the commandments.

Yes or No?

 

Therefore according to you. Using your logic. God can instruct a man to commit adultry and it really isn't sin because God said for the man to do it.

Then your view of God is that he is contradictory within himself and sin in only relative to whether you are God or not. In other words God is a flake.

 

That is the spin that you would like to place on my view but that is not the reality of it.

Exodus 20:4-5 prohibits humans from making and designing ANY and ALL images for religious purposes - period.

Exodus 20:4-5 does not prohibit God from making and designing images for religous purposes BECAUSE everything God commands to be made is RESTRICTED to a heavenly pattern and RESTRICTED for specific use and purposes which God ALONE has AUTHORITY and WISDOM to design and determine proper use. Humans are incapable of access to heavenly patterns and have no authority to determine reglious design or significance for any image they make. Hence, by assuming the role of image making they are first usurping the authority only God has reserved for himself but second they are deficient of the wisdom necessary to properly design and determine the proper use and meaning of a religous image and therefore leads to worshipping the image instead of the image maker.

So the difference is Divine authority to do so, the proper heavenly pattern to be able to do so and the wisdom necessary to design and prescribe the proper use of such.

What God commands, designs and determines the use is what man can make and use within God's restrictive designs and NOTHING MORE. Rome has no authority, no wisdom and no design provided and no command by God to make its various images.

 

Its not spin. I will follow your post and see if you can instruct on this seemingly in compatable behavior of God with his words.

This is how you understand that passage. I personally see it as a prohibition of worshiping other gods especially those made with the Hand. But I'm trying to see your reasoning. So according to you this is how you understand that passage. God prohibits religious images. Ok.

So lets see if I get this straight God tells man that it is a sin to make religeous images and he would damage the man who does it up to his third generation off spring. But God can do the very same thing because he's bigger, better, stronger, more intelligent, and more wise than men. Which means you believe sin is only relative to God. No matter what God does its not a sin because he's bigger than all of us even if he tell us it is a sin. God does not restrict himself from sin not because of his nature but because whatever he wants to do is ok because no one can tell him any different. However, You ignore the fact that in Exodus 27 God doesn't build the ark of the covenant he commands men to do it whom he just told it is a sin to do. So the logic doesn't follow. Which means God character is maliable or pliable. How is your God any different than Zeus? Zeus often told people to be moral but he committed adultry, raped people, killed people on a whim just because he felt like it. Your logic makes the One true God look like this.

You are basically saying humans are stupid and cannot understand religious significance of anything they do.

Hence, God can command men to sin and it be ok because he is bigger and better than men and thus is aloud to provide instruction against the 10 commandments. Why the need for Jesus to fufill the law. God can go against his law in this view.

in other words God can do what he wants because no one is able to tell him otherwise.

IN otherwords God is permitted to contradict what he tells men to do?

Man that is a low view of God.

God is perfect. God does not sin. God does not tell a man that something is a sin and does not hold himself accountable to that same principle. Something is sin because it is contrary to God's own nature or attributes. God cannot contradict himself. If God says something is a sin it is against his very nature of which he will not go against. God does not arbitrarily assign sin to man but allows himself the ability to do it. God is sinless because he does not sin. Not because he is beyond the consepts of bad and good an sin is only such to men. The Universe is built on the principles that God has established out of his nature thus if you act contrarily to the nature of God you seperate yourself from him which is death because he is life. Therefore your interpretation of Exodus 27 is lacking. God has no problem with religious imagary as we can see on the ark and the tabernacle and Solomons temple. He has a problem of errecting other gods. Its not the image that is the problem its the false gods.

 

So you've come up with a long complicated explanation of why this isn't really a case of God commanding sin. But that does not make it true. There is no biblical basis to favor the far-fetched explanation that you present here. It is merely speculation.

Your explanation has no more biblical basis than the other possible explanation, which is that the commandment was only meant to condemn idols to false gods, that it was never intended to condemn religious art that helps people to worship the true God. This explanation is better in my opinion because a rule that needs an exception right off the bat, from day one, isn't usually a very good rule.

It also creates the really strange notion that there are exactly two permitted religious statues on earth that do not violate the ten commandments. It's like God saw a use for religious art in one specific instance, then changed his mind and never came up with a second exception to his rule. Why? What need did the high priests who went into the tent with the ark have for these angels that later generations didn't have? If angel statues were a good idea in the temple, why not in our churches? If it's because God has to make them himself, why wouldn't he then provide a way for us to make more with his guidance. I guess it's all a mystery and we'll find out when we get to heaven?

 

Wrong start! That is not what I said or meant! I said that God forbids MEN the authority/right to make and design religious images. I gave the reasons, because God alone has the patterns and the authority to define and determine the purpose and use of religious images. Man lacks all the above.

 

You are one confused dude! God alone has the wisdom, the accesss to heavenly patterns and the right/authority to design and determine the proper purpose and use of religious images.

The angels on the ark were commanded by God to be built according to a restricted divine pattern for a restricted divine purpose.

Man is prohibiting from INVENTING his own images according to his own patterns according to his own purposes and use.

 

Every image God commanded was made after a heavenly pattern. - That is Biblical

God forbids man from making any image of anything in heaven or earth - that is Biblical - Ex. 20:4-5

God's pattern for every image He commanded to make had a divine purpose and use and it was NEVER to be an object of worship - that is Biblical.

God ALONE has access to "heavenly" patterns to design and make such images - that is Biblical.

God ALONE has the right/authority to determine the purpose and use of all images he commanded to be made - That is Biblical.

 

I'm just repeating what you said.

So we're not smart nor big enough to design religious images? Well if our images are designed on the stories in the bible then its not our design is it? you are saying God still can go against his word because he's bigger than men. What kind of theology is that? God cannot go against his word. Because its contradictory to his nature. Even if he tells men its a sin to do something. He himself is bound by that principle. God cannot sin because sin is contradictory to God's perfections, nature, and attributes.

 

There's your contradiction right there in your own words. The commandment forbids making images. It doesn't say they can be made only when given special instructions or when made correctly with a pattern given by God.

If the commandment had been:

"You shall not make your own incorrect images of things you imagine to be in heaven above. Any religious images you require must be specifically designed and authorized by me to ensure their accuracy and correct use."

Then what you say would make sense.

You're promoting the idea of a God who makes rules and then immediately instructs people on the proper circumstances under which to break them.