Stepping on my soap box

Your posts are very insightful, and would encourage you to keep on the track in which you are going. I think you are much closer to the kingdom of God than those who are raking you over the coals in this thread. Sometimes you have to be "feisty" to counter some of the arrogant, self-righteous attitudes shown here.

 

Thank for filling in some more blanks. The picture is becoming clearer as you provide more information. The pastor was definitely out of line.

 

I hate to butt in after the thread has gone this long, but I've just been reading it through and have to comment on this.

The passage that we will know them by our fruits is one of the most mis-used in Scripture. So many people use it to say that we can look at the outward lives of others and tell if they are saved. But it doesn't say we will know believers by their fruits, it says we will know false prophets by their fruits. Note: "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:15-16). Get it right!

Mr. Usuki in our church uses crude language in Hokkaido dialect, he smokes like a chimney, he still drinks alcohol, he dresses very casually for church, he brags that he is the friend of the local yakuza boss (Japanese mafia), etc.

By your standards no doubt he'd be lost and going to Hell, do not pass "Go" and do not collect $200. But I'm proud to know Mr. Usuki, delighted that I can pick him up for church every Sunday, and see great possibilities for God using him in the future. You see, he's a new Christian. He loves his Bible and reads it so much he takes it to bed with him. He brags about his pastor and church to everyone, including I'm sure the yakuza boss. And what do they tell him? "Man, Usuki San, you've really changed!" Salvation is about inner change, not outer. That can come anytime.

 

The great 19th century soul-winner, "Uncle John" Vassar, used to ask people, "Do you love Jesus?" I've used that one before, notably on a United Methodist pastor who got angry at me when I asked if he was saved. I've also used, "What do you think of Jesus Christ?" I think any diagnostic question about Christ is good.

 

You never saw me say anyhting about sinless prefect, you made that up yourself. What I have said is, those approving of and living a sinful lifestyle, theres a difference there between what I said and what you say I said.
An on going sinful lifestyle with no desire to change. Does that sound like the description of a christian to you.

 

prehaps preaches should stop preaching about sin, as that is judging, and when we witness we can never mention sin, or use any scripture that mentions sin, as thats also judging. People are much more likely to attend church or want to become christians if they don't have to hear about their sin, if we leave it off I'm sure numbers will grow much quicker.

 

This is an honest answer. Thank you.

Still, my impression from the OP is that a pastor made your sister cry and you're mad. My tendency is to think that if the pastor made an effort to talk with someone then his heart is in the right place and we shouldn't be giving more room to the hypersensitivities of rebellious, worldly people than to the good faith efforts of God's ministers to do the right thing.

Unless I can talk to the pastor himself, he enjoys the defacto standing of being in the right in my eyes, and your protests are the cries of someone who got stung.

 

==I can very much relate to that because I have seen some churches do horrible things to people who needed the message of the church. I've seen a church turn children away because they did not have the right color of skin. Its sad, but it happens.

As for tattoos, which I know was part of the op, nobody should be "judged" because they have a tattoo. Period. Tattoos are not behavior and many times they represent the person's former life. Sometimes Christians get too caught up in rules (etc). You know, hair styles, music styles, clothing styles, things like that. All of that is unBiblical. We should be just as cautious of the legalist as the antinomian.

==I don't doubt that.

==I agree with that as well. It is not my job to tell people who is and who is not saved. However we should point to the warnings of Scripture. Many modern Christians, as you probably know, will not do that. They water the Gospel down every chance they get.

==I know where you are coming from.raying:

 

==Oh, I agree 100% Jim. A Christian preaches the Gospel in two ways: 1) with his/her walk 2) with his/her lips. If the former is out of line the latter is not going to be effective.

 

==Certainly God acknowledges the progress. That is all about growing in the Lord. What I was talking about was a person who is in willfull rebellion against the Lordship of Christ. Of course new believers have to grow and learn and mature (etc). That process involves failing and falling and getting up and going again. But the point I would make is that the new believer, the true new believer, keeps getting up and moving forward. It is the false that returns to the mud and loves every second of it.

==I agree 100%. But if the person refuses they should be treated as an unbeliever (Matt 18:15-20).

 

Huh? You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never argued such a thing.

My apology.

 

We are not the "salvation police", in that we cannot see into a person's heart and know if Holy Spirit dwells there.

The best we can do is look at how someone is living their lives and decide if that way of living is consistent with a profession of faith and God's Word.

We are commanded by Christ, I believe, to make those kinds of judgements.

peace to youraying:

 

That was a good post. I do have a question about your second statement. If you go to church twice on Sunday and once on Wednesday, you see your fellow members about 4 hours a week. Most likely, less, as few go to all three. How well do you think you know them? Do you think you can observe how they live by how they act at church? Isn't observing someone in the workplace a much more realistic setting to observe such a life pattern? How many people do you think act the same at home, work, and church?

 

The first principle in counselling is listening. We cannot listen if we keep talking. Let the person tell their story. Let the person listen to their story. Ask questions pertinant to their story. Let that sink in and maybe, just maybe, you can start to lead them in the path.

Cheers,

Jim