Stepping on my soap box

Hey John,

I don't think you disagree with either of them. I believe that their footnote on that passage is talking judgment between brothers and sisters in Christ when a sin has occurred and caused a separation whereby reconciliation between the one who sinned and Christ and the one sinned against needs to occur. I also think that they are advocating that Christians ought to be grounded enough in the Word to be able to judge for themselves when they hear a false teacher proclaiming false doctrine. I do not think that they were talking about judging the salvation of anyone.

 

Indeed. What a great point.

Yet that is not even the biggest difference, technically anyway. The biggest difference is our spirit has been quickened, made alive, forever changed, regenerated, by God The Holy Spirit. The spirit of everyone else is still in its fallen state - dead, if you will, the state we inherited from Adam, even though they sometimes can appear on the outside to be 'more Christian than Christians'. That's because they have, through good habits, values, teaching, and discipline, more control over their flesh and souls than some regenerate Christians.

It's the true believer's soul (mind, will, emotions) and his flesh that is under discussion here, and the area where the great battle of our walk is fought. The spirit of the believer, originally made in God's image, only to die in Adam and be regenerated by Him through Christ, is a finished work, sealed by the Holy Spirit. Even our enemy, Satan, with all his power, cannot touch that. He deals with our souls and our flesh, when we are not doing it to ourselves. To the extent that we are obedient, we become "transformed by the renewing of our minds", yet we never get there.

Jesus has saved our spirits, and will certainly save our souls, and eventually our flesh as well. But for now we are to "work out" the salvation of our souls and bodies "with fear and trembling", even though our hearts are "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked", since both our soul and body remain in a fallen state, awaiting its redemption.

My, what our Lord has done, and is still doing, for us.

:jesus:

 

If you don't mind, define spirit and soul? You said in your first paragraph that our spirits have been redeems but in the last you say out soul is still fallen. Just curious about your definitions.

 

Thanks for clarifying. God bless!

 

I am only pointing out she didn't use "quotation marks" (so it isn't a direct quote) and she didn't say "Matt. 7:15 says" (so it isn't a direct quote) and there are many places in scripture where one could say the passage means you shall know a believer/unbeliever by the fruit they produce.:1_grouphug:

Well, you don't know what the pastor said (or the woman for that matter) and neither do I. I have had people claim that I said words that never came out of my mouth. It was their interpretation of what I had said that did not resemble what I actually said. People sometimes hear what they want to hear to justify their attitudes of rebellion.

Then the command to go to someone in private is out? Every time we see someone do something we believe to be sinful, we are to take it before the church? I don't believe that is consistent with the steps given to us by our Lord.

I thank God for your faithful service and ministry in Japan. May he continue to bless you, your family, and those you minister to.

peace to youraying:

 

Sorry, I don't agree that it has to have quote marks to be a direct quote. When I was an editor, I would have said something like, "Hey, you need to put quote marks around this because it's a direct quote."

I was just going along with the OP, which is all we can do, or we might as well not even be discussing it. It was all anonymous, so I don't think the pastor or anyone else is going to be damaged by our discussion, and I do believe it has been a fruitful discussion.

Well, the command you are referring to in Matt. says that if anyone has tresspassed against you, you must go to them and get things right. Then there is the other command in Matt. 5:23-24 which says if we have offended someone else we must go to them and get things right. Both of these cases only involve two people. They don't give license to judge anyone about anything but that relationship: you and them. All other matters (did he drink a beer, did he cheat on his wife, did he lie to someone else) are off the table in these two passages.

Thank you friend. You have a wonderful 2009.

 

I just ran across this thread, and read the post above. I've not "got a dog in this hunt," though I do have views about such issues. It occurred to me, though, that this post spoke volumes to things I've gone thru in the past. Of course, I'm sure donnA didn't intend it the way I read it, so this is NOT any kind of rebuke or argument with her....

I have been in ministry for almost 22 years. I've been a Christian more than 28 years. In that time, I've known "hoods" with tatoos, long hair and piercings, and I've known Pastors in nice suits with important positions. I've been treated well by some of both -- and I've been abused terribly by some of both.

In my situation, having been cursed at and threatened by a tattooed biker-type has acutally happened FAR LESS than being betrayed by, lied about, used by stabbed in the back by those supposed "Men of God" (and a few women too) who looked SO good and "holy" on the outside, but who were "ravening wolves" that attempted to tear my life apart.

Given the experiences I've had, though I might cringe at the tattoos and the peircings, I would usually take a cup of water from the hands of a rough looking Biker faster than I would a great many "God-fearing," properly dressed, smile-wielding Church folk.

I thank God for all my friends in Church, for true Christian friends. I try not to judge them, however, by "what's on the outside." Nor do I set out to judge the Hoods and Bikers based on their appearance. I'd like to think I'm better at NOT judging based on the outward appearance than I used to be. Now the trick in not becoming so cynical as to refuse to accept every professing Christian "at face value."

 

Great post... The Lord has placed my ministry in the midst of homeless and people otherwise casted away by society. It works for me because I have a passion for the underdog. One thing I love about my less affluent members as opposed to some of my more affluent members is they have no hidden agenda. When they have a problem with me, they without fail come up to me, shake my hand and say, "Brother Pastor, I have a problem with etc..." I appreciate even those who are more passionate and less polished in their approach who might just cuss me out. I don't feel threatened and I know where they stand. You would think they read Mat 18:15 but as I learned that is pretty much how it's done on the streets.

Now my more affluent, "Bible knowing" members to include my associates in the ministers alliance seem to harbor differences then proceed to place stumbling blocks and pitfalls in my path along with meetings with hidden agenda's. I get nervous and cautious when one is nice to me just because in the past, that turned out to mean they've done something or was doing something to hurt me.

That's why I can relate to your post. Some of the wolves in sheep clothing don't even bother to zip the zipper on the sheep's costume...

What a strange but true statement...

 

what's the worldly saying: don't criticize me until you have walked a mile in my moccasins?

Cheers,

Jim

 

Sure, I'll try.

First, I think it's important to understand that soul and spirit are very closely related, yet different, as Scripture suggests. Both are incorporeal and both are distinct from the body. Yet Scripture indicates they are not the same thing, which is what led me to investigate the matter some 5 years ago now after wondering about it for years.

I see the soul as consisting of the mind, the will, and the emotions (as do any number of theologians). Many Bible dictionaries describe it as the immaterial part of man held in common with animals.

The spirit is more difficult to define. Here is a short excerpt from The Complete WordStudy Dictionary which I have found helpful (bold is mine):

It's important to note that man's spirit is dead in its natural, inherited state. It is made alive, "quickened" by the Holy Spirit when we are saved (born again, or regenerated, if you will) and then "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. If I have the right definition of soul (mind, will, emotions) it is obvious the soul is still fallen, certainly to be saved by Jesus in the future (quickened), just as our bodies will be saved (quickened). For now, we are to be "transformed by the renewing of our minds" as we take in the Word of God and meditate upon it.

To the extent we are obedient to God, our minds, and consequently our lives, are changed (transformed), and more closely conform to His nature. But our mind is still fallen (most of us know what happens when our minds get away from the things of God for any length of time) and no matter how hard we try, our minds will never be fully transformed until Jesus Himself does it (when He saves, or 'quickens', the soul). That's what I was getting at.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I hope that answers your question.

raying:

 

Great answer, I will start a new thread...

 

ah ok

gotcha! I personally have wonderful prayer times with the Lord in my garden in the summer, LOL!