Strange Things the Holy Spirit Cannot Do….

I say that the Holy Spirit has confirmed to me the truth of Romans 8:1 that it should not contain the last phrase found in the KJV. The Spirit and the Word agree.

Are you saying that the Spirit is lying to me?

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me Pastor Larry, now I understand why you don't get it!

Tam

 

So you are willing to call the Holy Spirit a liar?

But if you are wrong, you are a false teacher, and if you blame it on the Spirit, you have made him a false teacher.

Do you not see the seriousness of that?

I have no problem with you believing it should be there. But attributing that to some sort of information from the Spirit goes beyond the Scriptures, and should not be said.

 

Okay, I'll bite. What do you now understand?

 

Pastor Larry referred to illumination earlier. Apparently you did not understand him or did not pay attention. I actually referred to illumination before he did. You ignored my post as well when I brought that subject up. There are three concepts or teachings which are imperative for every believer to understand:
inspiration,
preservation, and
illumination.

God does not inspire translations such as the KJV or any of the modern translations. No translation is inspired. Remember that though the KJV is a good translation, it is not inspired. Only the original MSS, the very documents that the prophets of the OT, and the Apostles of the NT wrote are inspired. We do not have those documents, those MSS today.

Preservation: God has promised to preserve His Word. We know that his Word is preserved, but God chose not to tell us how he preserved His Word. Some believe it was through the TR, and some believe it was through the Critical Text. There are over 5,000 MSS today, extant, of the NT. All of this is a matter of textual criticism and really should be discussed in the versions forum, not here.

Illumination: The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind of the believer of the truth of God's Word as to what it means, as opposed to the unbeliever who has trouble understanding it. It is a living book. It speaks to us. God speaks to us through His Word, by the Holy Spirit. This is what I stated. This is what illumination is. Scripture?

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--This verse in particular tell us that we have received the Holy Spirit for the purpose of understanding the Bible, the things that are freely given to us by God. This is illumination. Look at the contrast here:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--The natural (or unsaved man) does not receive or understand the things of the Spirit of God (the Bible). It is foolishness to him. He is spiritually discerned.

God's Word Translation translates the last half of that verse this way:
"He can't understand them because a person must be spiritual to evaluate them."
--God gives the Holy Spirit to the believer that he might understand the Word of God. That is illumination.
It has nothing to do with textual criticism; it has to do with the understanding of the Word of God!

Do you find the words: Textus Receptus, Majority Text, Byzantine Text, Stephanus, Critical Text, Sinaiaticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrian Text, Westcott and Hort, etc. in the Bible? No. This is all extra-biblical. Yes you are speaking of extra-biblical revelation. All textual criticism is extra-biblical revelation.

He is. The TR vs. Critical Text has no part in that "the truth of His Word."

Concerning "textual criticism," yes, every thing about it is extra-biblical.

 

The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God.
As long as you jerk that Scripture out of context it is akin to blasphemy. You do not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit inferring that Pastor Larry does not have the Spirit or is not saved.

Attacks on salvation, especially a moderator's, are grounds for banning. Be careful where you tread when you keep making these unwarranted accusations.

Here is what the Bible says about "The Holy Spirit bearing witness." It is the only place in the Bible where such phraseology is found.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

Because the KJV is not the inspired Word of God!
It is a translation!
Translations are not inspired; are not infallible; do have mistakes; are fallible; cannot accurately translate from one language to another.

Only the original documents were inspired and we don't have them any longer.

 

This is the core of the issue. If you claim one thing from the Spirit and I claim the other, then the Holy Spirit must be lying to one of us. Or one of us misunderstands (or both of us). But you have no way of knowing. You may have believed a lie, but you are taking such a dogmatic stand without merit.

That's the only reason I have posted on this topic.

I made no such claim. The words are in the original language, and therefore would have been added by scribes or copyists, not translators.

It is verbally inspired, but you are confusing some things. Copying and translating is not the product of verbal inspiration or miraculous intervention.

I think you are the one out of touch with reality here.

No, you don't understand inspiration. Inspiration applies to the original autographa, not to copies or translations. It is possible (in fact demonstrable) that words were added and deleted to copies of the text over the years.

This is true. That's the point. You are claiming the Holy Spirit has confirmed something to you when it might not even be verbally inspired to begin with.

Theologically, the inner testimony of the Spirit deals with the conviction that the Bible is the Word of God. Regeneration or illumination opens the spiritual eyes to bring spiritual understanding. That does not apply to textual variants, grammer, words, etc. Those are a completely different domain.

 

That's hardly to the contrary. What is at stake here is not certainty about the Bible's teaching on condemnation. If Romans 8:1 reads as most believe it does in the modern versions, the teaching on condemnation is clear because there is no dispute about vv. 2-4, or many other passages about condemnation.

If you think I sound like that, you haven't heard much from me. But that is really off topic here.

I agree. The truth and inspiration of the Bible is not under debate here. The means of the Spirit's work is what is being debated.

Faith won't make you right. Many people have strong faith in wrong beliefs.

As am I. Again, remember the truth of Romans 8:1 (or any other verse) is not under discussion here.

I don't think they are extra-biblical "revelation." Revelation has a specific meaning and it doesn't apply here. They are certainly extra-biblical in the sense that copies and translations do not partake of inspiration. In order to be a teacher of the Word, you must know this. If you don't know it, then you can't teach the Word truly.

Me either. Again, that's not really the debate here.

You are confusing many issues.

 

HP,
Here is something for you to think about.
From what you have written you believe that the KJV is "the inspired Word of God," correct?
Is then the corollary of that true: that the modern versions are not inspired?
For example, is the NIV, translated from the Critical Text, the "inspired" Word of God?

Now consider: When the Wycliffe Bible translators and those who went forth from the British Foreign Bible Society into the various nations of the world they used the Critical Text. Most of the nations of this world (more than 90% of them) have a Bible that is translated from the Critical Text, much like the ASV. For most of this world, then are you willing to say that they do not have the Word of God simply because it is not translated from the text that you favor? Does 90% of the world no longer have the Word of God because it is not "KJV-equivalent"?

Or would a person go and have to teach those nations first Shakespearean English, that they might read the KJV because it alone is the inspired Word of God? Remember that many of those nations have a high illiteracy rate in their own languages, much less in knowing English. Do you think you should force missionaries to teach the language of the KJV to all nations that they may be able to read "the inspired Word of God"? Or are their Bibles, translated from the Critical Text, also the Word of God?
What is your position HP?

 

Again, you are confused. This has nothing to do with faith alone.

Ever hear of a Muslim? Do you think they have strong faith? Do you think they are right? What about Hindus? They have very strong faith. Do you think they are saved? Even atheists have very strong faith. Do you think they are right?

There are all kinds of strong faith. But you can completely believe something that is completely false. Belief does not make something true, not even strong belief.

Assurance of salvation is based on Jesus, not on my faith. My faith is weak, but Jesus is the one who saves.

Again, HP, you are simply very very confused. This has nothing to do with faith alone.

 

Not recently, but it is a great passage on what it means to have a living faith.