Submit = Obey?

Amen! Brother, Preach it!

In His service;
Jim

 

I think they're probably equal, roughly. Overdomineering men is an epidemic just as much as overpermissiveness. It's just that we Christian tend to forgive overdomineering men, while at the same time, we scold men who give off the slightest hint of overpermissiveness, as though we had come down with wimp-a-phobia.

Many, yes. But I don't think it's most. Again, it goes back to wimp-a-phobia. If we see someon who isn't leading as WE think he should lead, all of a sudden, they're wimps in our eyes. We're usually wrong, but it's our sinful nature that puts it in our hearts to misjudge people, and Godly men who aren't playing qien es mas macho are easy targets.

Whoa, dude. First, when I said that men and women were equal, it was in the context of equality under the law. Second, in a marriage, it's not a matter of equal or not, since a scriptural marriage, the husband and wife are one. Not two, with one over the other, but one. Now, in that oneness, the husband has the role of headship, and the wife has the role of scriptural submissiveness. But these are not exclusive of each other, just as one flesh cannot be exclusive of one or another.

Interesting. But to be the scriptural head, you have an obligation to listen to your spouse, and take her needs and desires into account. A scriptural head doesn't just tell his spouse to do something, and expect her to do it. Headship requires taking the lead, getting input from the spouse, and coming up with a solution that satsfies the concerns and needs ot both parties in the "one flesh" covenant. I stated earlier that abuse of spiritual roles is typically an instance where both spouses are a party to. That appears to be the case with you, from what you've said. Yes, your spouse appears to be abusing your role of headship, but you appear to be abusing her role of submission. Again, just from what you've said in this instance. This is not an attack on you, though. I think every married couple ends up doing this at one point or another. Every fine-tuned watch needs to get synchronized regularly.

I submit that it's probably a combination of you not leading properly, and then you not leading at all, combined with her not submitting properly, and then her not submitting at all. Again, no attack on you personally. It's no shame to admit to having a broken watch. So, the question is, how to get the gears back in place? Part of that is both of you having an understanding of what each of you expects from each other, and what each of you is willing to do for the other, in regards to the roles of headship and submission.

Headship and submission is NOT her having to concede whenever there's a disagreement. That's not scriptural. Headship is you taking the lead to resolve the disagreement in a manner that both of you are happy with.

True, but in a marriage, there is not "two", there is "one". That is, there's one flesh. I submit the possibility that perhaps one of the issues your wife has had in the past is that she feels like you've wanted to have things "your way", while she's expected to just go along with you. If this is how she's felt, then there's likely been abuse of the headship role on your part. Again, no attack upon you here, since part of the submission role requires a wife to work with her husband to find a solution, and them let him lead by implimenting that solution.

[/QB]
Sciptural headship is not "the husband can hold his breath longer than the wife". All that does is make you turn bluer than her. Plus, it doesn't resolve the original disagreement.

Of course. That's a clear abuse of the headship role, not to mention, it's tantamount to marital dessertion.

Good points all.

In these cases, it's tough. In a perfect Godly world, this situation won't exist. Unfortunately, we live in a world where sin is a natural occurrence, and we must deal with the consequences of that. No, I don't think that God will despise a Godly woman who stays with a battering spouse. God doesn't despise his children, period. However, if our staying in a situation enables the other person to sin, then we have an obligation to leave the situation. There's never ever an easy answer to these situations.

 

Well, I certainly couldn't take any of your post as a personal attack considering you don't know me or my wife. However, I disagree with the notion that all of marriage is a happy compromise. Somethings can not be compromised.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

Not all compromises are "happy", but compromise is not a dirty word. One of the great disservices we've done to our marriages is to make "compromise" a dirty word. Now, in regards to things of a spiritual nature, you're correct. If one of you is sinning, then the other is not to compromise, lest he/she become a party to sin. However, if the issue is, for example, you want to paint the house black, and she wants to paint it green, this is not a spiritual issue, then for you (or her) to go ahead and paint your house the color of your choice is the result of a spirit of self-centeredness, disrespect, and lack of love.

Joshua 24:15 is not relevant to the topic, since it does not discuss the marital relationship, let alone the issue of compromise. However, it does imply a family unity in service to the Lord, and is valuable for study to that point.

 

I am only going to post once on this thread unless of course someone needs me to explain something about my post.

This is a very touchy issue especialy with Baptists, because we all believe differant things and as a result we are not always open to new ideas or concepts, this is why we must exercise extra caution and patience when dealing with other Baptist on this issue we should also pray and ask God to show us the correct way. Only through the respect of each other, love for Christ, and loyality to seeking the truth, will we get a genuine interpretation of what our father in heaven's true and complete commandments are on this issue.

God bless and keep you all.
your brother and servant.

-Fishnbread.

 

There's a saying lawyers have, "Hard cases make bad law." In other words, you don't decide an issue based on the worst case scenario. The situation above is extreme and goes beyond the normal headship/submit situation -- in fact, it's happening because there are probably lots of things going on worse than just the wife not submitting. Things have happened to lead to this situation and those have to be dealt with (unless the man married the wife knowing she was doing these things, then he's gone along with it). As JohnV pointed out, now it's become a situation of confronting the person with a sin.