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Submitting to his authority

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ivorytickler, Nov 7, 2007.

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  1. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Someone else here suggested that you do exactly what he says and that he will ultimately be responsible for it. I disagree with that. He may have to answer to God for it in the afterlife, but you and your children will pay the price for it here and now.

    Either I did not read your previous posts thoroughly or else you have added more information here, but I was not aware that he was asking you to be fiscally irresponsible both spiritually and practically.

    Being in submission to a husband does not mean that you leave your brain and your will at the wedding chapel. Being in submission to him does not mean that you have to blindly do whatever he tells you to. As I have said already, headship is not a power trip.

    I am sorry that you are in so much pain over this.

    Both my mother and father worked. I said that she handled the finances. And they both divided up household chores.

    And perhaps my perspective isn't the best - my father never told my mother what to do. They made plans together and made all decisions together. Most of the time they were on the same wavelength, but sometimes he gave in and sometimes she gave in. I can only think of one time that he "pulled rank" on her and forced her to do something against her will that she disagreed with. That one single time he was completely in the wrong and they are still paying a price for his "pulling rank" on her and he sees that now. Their marriage did not suffer, but there is an extended family situation that will never be resolved.

    So perhaps I am looking at marriage through the rose-colored glasses of my wonderful parents. I apologize for that.

    I can tell by this paragraph that there are more issues here than just the money. I'm sorry. Your pain is quite evident. I don't really know what to say.

    You are not powerless. You are a daughter of the Living God.

    There are people on the board who will tell you that a wife is to do exactly as she is told and that the husband can tell her to do anything - consequence free.

    That's not true. Again, I am very sorry that your marriage is suffering. I will pray for you.

    I guess that the only thing that I can tell you is this - weigh his demands on a "scale".

    If what he is demanding is in conflict with Holy God, then you can tell him, quite respectfully, that you are going to have to obey God.

    If what he is demanding is in conflict with you alone, even if you are right and he is dead wrong, - compromise to the best of your ability. Give in a little - give in alot - even if you have to grit your teeth to do it. Show him that you are willing to yield to the marriage vows that the two of you once swore to uphold together. Tell him straight up that you are NOT a doormat and that you are not giving in because he is your "boss", but because you love him and trust him and want to make him happy and that you believe in your marriage. Tell him honestly that while you don't trust this particular decision that he is asking you to make, that you trust in the marriage that the two of you have sacrificed to make work.

    If it's a matter of obedience to God, there is no compromise that you should be expected, as a wife, to bear.

    If it's a serious matter of the physical welfare of you and your children, then you should respectfully tell him no.

    If it's a matter of the two of you butting heads over an issue, then it is your responsibility to be an example to him of humility and grace.

    Only you can decide which on of these scenarios is yours. And you can only make that decision after deep and intense personal seeking of God's face. Take your fear and anger to God, drop it at His feet, and share with Him how you feel. Then trust the Almighty God who created you to lead you.

    No one on the BaptistBoard can tell you what to do. Only God can. He knows your fears and he understands your hurts and pains.

    In Psalm 13, David very intently poured his heart out to God over something that was burdening him almost to death. He told God all of his woes and then he trusted God to lead him and trusted God take care of him.
     
    #21 Scarlett O., Nov 8, 2007
  2. pocadots1990

    pocadots1990 Member

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    Before Larry Burkett died, he suggested this for a two person income (even Dave Ramsey suggests this). You two sit down and work out a budget based on HIS income and try to save yours (whether 401k, savings, kids college). This means, if you have to cut back in some areas then do so.

    Adam was the one in charge of providing for Eve when they were out of the Garden.

    Finances is a big area that will cause marriages to end in a divorce.

    There seems to be a deeper here than money. Is your husband a Christian? If so, then he is the spiritual leader of the home. Ephesians 5 tells the husband to be the head of the home as Christ is the head of the church. Paul also writes to the man to love his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. Then it does say for wives to submit themselves to their husbands.

    There are a few of ladies in our church whose husbands (one man is not saved and the other two are not right with the Lord). I encouraged our ladies to live a quiet testimony in front of their husbands (I Peter 3). My wife did that on me at times when we were in disagreement about things, and it turned out that when she prayed for me, then God really started working on me.

    Hope this makes since.

    I think all of us here on the BB Board will agree when I say, "We want you marriage to succeed." The only way to do it is to have God in the center of your marriage.

    We're praying for you and your family. :praying:
     
    #22 pocadots1990, Nov 8, 2007
  3. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Ok, here are my thoughts.

    If you have a boyfriend, get rid of him immediately. No contact whatsoever.

    http://www.wwme.org/ Here's a link to a wonderful resource for hurting couples called Marriage Encounter.

    I will continue to pray but I don't know what to think. Your posts have taken a quick turn. Your primary concern was household finances and authority, now you are hinting to abuse issues.
    Only you know the truth. But a child of God will make decisions on what is true, not conjure up excuses to get a divorce. I am not saying you are, but I need to cover myself since this added detour.

    We don't know the situation, like Scarlett said, only what you tell us. If I didn't answer you, it's because I do not have enough info and likely need to live a day in your shoes.

    I am confused somewhat because your posts changed. He won't watch his own sick kids though he works at home. He had supervised visits (court ordered?) with your kids during your separation. This wasn't mentioned prior, only talk about money issues and authority.

    How you handle customers is a task at work, best left to remain there. Keep work at work. Petty arguments are something you, as a grown up, need to avoid. They aren't good for the kids to hear either.
    Maybe just deciding not to work on the marriage for a while is good. Take a break. How about you both go on a short term mission trip? If there is any way you both can take time off to go help starving or sick children, it would put things more into perspective. Seeing others in pain, and very sick really causes one to appreciate what they have.

    My advice is to pray and work on your own relationship in the lord. Your post seems wrapped up in the here and now, which is understandable when one is in pain. Yet you don't appear to have an identity as one of God's children. This is what bothers me most.
    Paying the bills, household finances, are the here and now. Right now is a only blink of an eye compared to eternity. Get right with the Lord, direct your children to the Lord in a similar manner. Thank God he gave you such a good job, and be appreciative to him every day he allows you to continue in that job position. You are lucky to have food, a nice home while others are ill and starving. If you trust God, he will come through for you. If you don't, then I wouldn't hold my breath.
    Your worldly life decisions do not dictate a positive outcome, your trust in God will. If you don't trust in him, no matter what, things just never seem to work out.
     
    #23 Joe, Nov 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2007
  4. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    My husband says he is Christian but doesn't pray, study and didn't attend church until our reconcilliation this summer. So, it would be hard to tell if he didn't tell you. He's ok with me taking the kids to church. I'm not sure of his motives for starting to attend church with me. Could be to please me or could be to save face among the people who supported me the most during our separation or maybe he just wants what I had during the separation. I discovered I have many people who care about me at the church during all of this. He discovered that he has no one. He says he had an epiphany when he realized that he was alone and all he ever really had was his family and he threw that away. He said he had to do some soul searching when he realized he had no friends while I was surrounded by people willing to hold me up in a time of need. Kind of maybe there's something to this??

    I'd like to beleive that but I've had years and years of self centeredness. I tend to be cyinical with regard to his motives. I worry this is about undermining the friendship and support I have at the church. It's hard to let go of 20+ years of baggage. He says he's changed but I weigh 20+ years against less than one and during those 20+ years the last thing he ever would have done is take care of me and the kids. I once asked him to work on a financial plan with me so that I'm covered if something happens to him only to be told "You're a big girl. You'll figure it out." He didn't even care what happens to me. That is a reality I have to live with because I chose badly when I married.

    I'm actually surprised he's biting into being told that the man has the authority the way he is. In the past, he's pretty much avoided responsiblity and the whole point of the seminar session in question was how the person with the responsibility needs the authority ASSUMING that person is the man. Only that's not always the case. I've had the responsibility to support us for so long that it's second nature. It's what I'm supposed to do. A lot of my self worth centers around my ability to support my family well.

    I agree with the idea that the person with the responsibility needs the authority. I do think the bible passages telling women to be in submission are out dated though. They date back to a time when women lived in a separate sphere. I don't think it was ever intended to say we're not smart enough to make decisions but just recognition of the fact that back then, women were isolated from what was going on in the world. They had to rely on the man who was out there and knew what was going on. Today, this would apply to me not thinking for one second I can tell him what to do about his job. I don't know his job. He's the expert there. In my mind, he has full athority to handle his job because he is the expert on it. But I am the expert on mine and both careers have to be protected. Well, actually mine needs to be protected. Without a day care bill, I could support us. I would not, however, ask him to take any more risk with his job than I'm willing to take with mine. That would not be fair. But that's, exactly, what he has told me to do.

    I'd LOVE to save what I make but, reality is, we can't live off of his income. He's made some bad career choices that have resulted in his earning potential being lowered over the years and he refuses to budget. Says budgets are for people who don't have enough money to pay their bills. It is very hard on me seeing all we have and NOT taking good care of it. I live in fear that someday I'll look back and really regret we didn't.

    Just to put things in perspective, he has an inheritance coming when his parents pass away that will take care of him in his old age. When he dies, it will pass to his children (both our girls and his sons from his first marriage). So I have cause to worry about my future more than he does about his. The money that will take care of him when he's old won't be there for me. Family money passes to family not spouses unless you choose to leave it to a spouse. Not that I want something that isn't mine. I don't. It's just why he thinks there's no need to save. He doesn't get burned if we don't save. I do. When he retires, he has social security, his inheritance, our savings and my income. When I retire, I'll have my pension and our savings. We're in just SLIGHTLY different situations. He's older than me and it's quite likely I'll spend a decade or two as a widow. I feel a need to take care of that. He doesn't consider that his concern. So we argue about what an appropriate amount of savings is but we are aruging from two totally different perspectives. Another worry of mine is that I'll have to cut my career short in order to take care of him if he becomes ill. Then I'll really be in a pickle as I could end up not even having a full pension (he's never stayed anywhere long enough to have a pension so I'll get nothing from his past employment). Seems everywhere I look I'm being placed at risk and being told here I shoudl just accept that and if I end up living in a cardboard box when I'm 70, oh well, it was God's will.

    Even with two children, he's refused to put life insurance on himself. He says there's no need to make me rich when he dies and that I'm "a big girl" and can figure it out on my own. Ok, if he wants me to figure it out on my own, don't I need the authority to do that? You can't tell me to do it on my own and then keep the tools I need to do the job to yourself.

    As far as living a quiet testimony, that's what I've tried to do for years but I have considered myself his equal when it comes to financial decisions and insisted they, at least, consider me and my future. I didn't think God intended me to roll over and play doormat here. I put my babies into full time day care because that's what he wanted. I work the career he wanted for me because I make more money at it (I would love to be a teacher but he doesn't think that pays enough). I have compromised my beliefs right and left for many many years. I have only insisted that I have the authority to handle the responsibility I have been given. Now I'm told I don't have that right. I have no idea how one lives up to responsibility without the authority to do so. How can I be responsible when he has the authority?

    The really sad part is I'm facing losing my job and can't even talk to him about it. That really drives home how sad my marriage is. I don't get why it's supposed to be all his way. If that's the case, I'm thinking I don't need a husband.
     
    #24 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
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  5. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Good morning ivorytickler :)

    You haven't replied back to me yet, so I hope you don't mind me posting to you again. With this new information, I would like to add my thoughts.

    Scarlett O stated "if what he is demanding is in conflict with Holy God, then you can tell him, quite respectfully, that you are going to have to obey God"

    So true

    Now with regards to money matters, God expects us to be good stewards of our money.
    Imo, just because husbands do not wish to obey God regarding this matter, that doesn't make allowances for the wives to disobey God. God is #1

    Everything we have belongs to the Lord no matter who acquired it, the husband or the wife.

    There is another bible verse which applies concerning ants who are even smart enough to store up for the winter. Says something like that, but I lost it in the cut & paste process.


    I am confident there is no question as to you remaining to put as much $$ in your 401k plan as possible knowing your husband is taken care of when he is old through his inheritance. God instructs us to plan for a rainy day.

    As long as you are paying more towards the bills, as you make more $, then that is fair being a good steward of what God has given you. I can't decide how much $$ of course, but the principal is common sense.

    Ideally, the Bible has stated this with regards to a husbands obligation to his wife. At this time, he is not fulfilling it.

    This is something he needs to work on. Whether he succeeds, makes no difference.

    Regarding tithing, imho, it is not biblical. Here are some guidelines.

    Imho, if you continue to boast as "breadwinner", he will continue to resist you. Demeaning causes hurt. See Scarlett's earlier post, it's perfect.

    Imo, can't expect him to obey the Lord if you set a different example. Put away the money arguments, get rid of any boyfriends, and respectfully tell him what the Lord instructs. Since he is taking some interest in church, encourage that. May God's grace be with you

    Hope this helps :praying:
     
    #25 Joe, Nov 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2007
  6. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    I find it interesting that you refer to me paying more of the bills. He's the only one with a separate account. The rest, including the ones my pay is deposted into are joint. I've never thought of it as me paying more of the bills. I do think of earning more of the income because I do and I feel that needs to be protected. I am the source of my family's financial security and to throw that away because he wants to play master to me would be foolish.

    If history repeats itselfe, he's not interested in what he Lord instructs except where it serves his purposes. His disregard for my future is a glaring example. It doesn't serve him to make sure I'm taken care of so it's not his concern. In fact, he sees me saving for retirement as taking money out of his pocket now. After all, it's most likely going to be money I live off of not him. (this is the only reason I can come up with for his resistance to my saving for retirement) Hopefully, when he retires, he'll be living off of my income and we won't have to touch savings until I retire.

    He actually told me once that I haven't paid a single bill in years because the amount I deposit to the checking accoung regularly is smaller than his (this is because some money is deferred from my check into a savings account that handles major purchases like cars, appliances, the roof we recently put on our house or things like our daughter's piano lessons and music camps (my nickname is in honor of her BTW) so we don't have to go into debt for those things. Instead of making a car payment or a second mortgage payment, we make a savings deposit. So I am contributing more, just not more to the checking account.) While he agrees we should not go into debt, he does not see the separate account that pays for the things most people do go into debt for as contributing to the household (he warps it to make it look like he is the breadwinner). I guess he sees himself as supporting us. I just pay for the home repairs, buy the cars, pay for school for the kids, music lessons, vacations, medical bills, etc, etc, etc... It's not like we need my income, :lol. It's set up that way because I'm the saver and he's the spender. Our monthly bills are very low because we don't have car payments and don't have to do things like use a charge card if there's a medical emergency. We just write a check out of that account.

    We do very well financially, in my opinoin. We just view that in a very different light. He sees it as a ticket to do/spend what he wants as if it just magically will always be there and I see it as a responsibility to take care of it. For what it's worth, the next time the 401K debate comes up, I'll try telling him that God commands me to put away for the future and he can take it up with God if he thinks I shouldn't be. I really need to up my contribution back to where it was before we separated (I changed it to handle the bills on my own during the period of time he refused to contribute (he figured he shouldn't have to pay child support because I earn more but the court said otherwise)). But I haven't changed it back because I didn't want to start a fight over it. I did try to get him to up his but that didn't work. All he'll put in is the minimum to get his employer's matching.

    You know, I think couples should have to take a financial compatibility test before they're issued a marriage license, lol. I couldn't have known though. I had no earning potential when we got married. His plan was to get one young enough to train her the way he wanted but I didn't realize that at the time. What I thought was support for my personal growth turned out to be his retirement plan.

    Edited to add: It's not throwing it in is face that I'm the breadwinner. That is actually by his design. It's the career choices he's made over the years that landed us here. I'm just asking him to respect that I have that responsiblity and understand that I need to protect that for all of our sakes. It's the way he's always wanted it but now he acts like it's a problem. He can't seem to decide what he wants. On the one hand my out earning him seems to bother him (now that we're back together but not before the separation) but on the other, he won't support a career change for that leaves him as the primary bread winner (me going into teaching.). Sometimes, I think the solution is for me to find a lower paying job with a great retirement plan. ;o) He seems very conflicted about this at this time. He even asked his boss for a raise and agreed to work full time hours in consideration for one which is something he hasn't been willing to do for years.

    While the size of his paycheck doesn't bother me, I have to say that his choice to work fewer hours in return for less pay has for some time. Especially since he still held me responsible for the home in spite of him working fewer hours.
     
    #26 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
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  7. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    "If you have a boyfriend, get rid of him immediately. No contact whatsoever. "

    Wherever did you get the impression I have a boyfriend? I don't. He's the one who was dating during the separation. I never even got to the point I could consider it (but don't tell him :laugh: I never could figure out how he could start dating so fast when I couldn't even think of it but I never let him know I wasn't even capable of thinking of dating. I used to dress up and leave as soon as he picked up the girls so he wouldn't know that I couldn't do what he was doing. I felt like I should have been ready to date if he was but I just wasn't.).

    I try not to think about that but deep down it really bothers me. We'd only been separated two months when the girls came home from visitation and announced "Daddy has a girlfriend". I guess I'm easily replaced in his mind and heart. That's one of the harder things to take about all of this. And a reason many of my friends think I'm nuts for letting him move back in.
     
    #27 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
  8. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    So....

    He won't take care of the children when they are ill though he works at home. Expects you to.
    During your two month separation, he brought this "woman" around your kids? :eek:


    This is abusive to the children, and NOT tolerable. He shouldn't have been allowed back into the home unless he really straightened up.

    This superceeds any money issues you are concerned about. This should never happen again! :BangHead:

    I am praying....
     
    #28 Joe, Nov 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2007
  9. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Ivory, I had a whole post thought out and ready to post when I refreshed and saw Joe's post. I'm somewhat concerned that Joe may be right. I'll get to my previous thoughts later right now I want to deal with the possibility of abuse.

    Abuse is a sneaky thing. It starts out as a hurtful word here or there. or a "why" question: "Why can't you....make more money, dress in siletos, cook better, keep a cleaner house...." or "Why did you....chose this restarant, that outfit, that paint". It progresses in sly ways such that you believe the questions are geniune inquiries as to what you like or don't like. There may even be some discussion about 'differences' and how if you 'only loved him/her' you would do it their way, but there never seems to come a day when that person loves you enough to do things the way you like them. Then there comes a day when the abuser is blatant about doing something he/she knows you don't like or won't like. By this time you are so used to doing things the abusers way, that you don't realize that this is actual abuse or you buy into the idea that you have let things go their way so long that you can hardly expect them to consider you now. And that is when you get caught in the cycle.

    Make no mistake demeaning language, continued broken promises and failure to consider the other parties feelings, is abuse! I've been there, I know what it feels like, I understand the frustration and the anger that comes with it. I also understand the abuser will use your anger and frustration against you, thus compounding the abuse and making it harder for you to break the cycle.

    Go here for introductory information on abuse: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence/WO00044

    I'm going to put the rest of what I have to say in a different post. It may not all apply if there is abuse going on in your marriage.
     
    #29 menageriekeeper, Nov 9, 2007
  10. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    As I said, my friends think I'm insane.

    I don't believe my girls met her but they knew he was dating. I believe he had told them he was going to introduce them to her but never did. They, of course HAD to tell me as soon as they could. Which was about three seconds after he pulled out of the driveway after dropping them off (he was on his way to meet her and had told them he was going to see her).

    I'm afraid I did NOT play the part of the submissive wife here :lol:. I read him the riot act for letting them know he was dating. I told him to keep his love life to himself and reminded him that with our custody arrangement we both had plenty of time when the kids wern't around for dating and they did not need to know.

    You know what's funny? He doesn't seem to know where to draw the line with regard to what you can and cannot involve children in yet tried to call me an unfit mother because I've been known to yell at the kids.

    I don't know if I want to share more but there is more. You'll really think I'm insane. Suffice it to say that ai wrestled with my conscience and it won. I did not do what I wanted to do nor did I do what he deserved for me to do. I did what I believed was right and trust that if I turn out to have been wrong, God will grant me the strenght and intelligence to figure out how to fix it for my kids. I believe I made the best choice for them. Joint custody would have left them wth a father who had a history of bad decisions on their behalf half of th time.

    Interestingly, he has pretty much deferred to me when it comes to the kids since he's been back home. He handles the discipline now (because there was need to establish him as a father figure not a friend) but asks my advice first. He seems to realize that I have more sense than he does when it comes to the kids.

    There's a reason for that. He took up daily drinking shortly after our oldest duaghter was born and it became more and more of a problem as the years passed. I swore he'd pickled is brain beyond repair when he left. To everyone's surprise, he started to emerge from the fog about 12 weeks after he had to quit drinking during the custody battle. (now you really think I'm insane don't you?) It turns out if you drink often enough, your brain never returns to normal between rounds. It just anticipates the next drinking bout. The same sick thoght processes that exist when you're drinking are there when you're "sober". It can take weeks or months to start thinking clearly again. He blames his drinking for a lot of what happened and it probably is a big part of the problem.

    And thank you. you're right. The financial aspects are the least of my problems. Sometimes, you set your sight on one thing but it's really something else bothering you. The bottom line is I don't trust his judgement so the idea of him being an authority over me is scary. Not just job wise or financially but in any aspect. There just hasn't been enough time with him sober and trying for me to feel comfortable yet. I'm still on guard. Once bitten, twice shy.

    Thanks for the prayers. We need them.
     
    #30 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
  11. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Now if my first post doesn't apply:

    You and your husband seem to have different ideas about what marriage contrues. This is what God says:

    This is NOT and if/then statement. It does NOT say if the wife will submit to the husband then the husband will love the wife!

    It gives clear commandments as to how a wife should act toward her husband and how a husband should act toward his wife. Two clear and separate commands. If either party fails to act accordingly then the entire marriage suffers. If only one party acts thus the entire marriage is blessed. Let me say again: If either husband or wife follows the command we are given as individuals the marriage will be BLESSED!

    You are going say prove it. Okay:

    Now notice what these passages don't say:

    1. They don't say that bad behavior on the part of one spouse is an excuse for bad behavior on the part of the other.

    Let that sink in deep. This was absolutely the hardest thing I had to learn when my marriage seemed to be going south. "God you mean that when he is stupid and I'm the one suffering for it, I still have to hold up my end of this marriage thing?????" That was exactly what God meant. If my husband spent up the credit card frivorously and the kids and I had to do without, it was still my job to be submissive! This is a HARD THING!!!

    But lets qualify the word "without". God says, "I will supply all your need according to my riches in heaven." Was I trusting God to supply all my need while at the same time nagging at my husband because he wasn't doing it? Who was I trusting? Not God, and certainly not my husband (who really did run the credit cards up to the point where I could buy diapers for the firstborn without feeling guilty that those credit bills were sitting there and I didn't have the money to do both).

    But I wasn't trusting God at that point. And I knew perfectly well what He said. I simply wanted things done my way. The more I tried to get my husband to do things my way, the worse things became. And don't get me wrong. My husband had his own problems. He demeaned me. He tried seclude me from my friends. He ran up those cards on things that were sinful and didn't include me. I had scriptural excuses to divorce him. But God hates divorce. And what our marriage came down to was did I love the things of God enough to give over what I wanted for what God wanted? My husband and I were at the very point of divorce and bankruptcy. He was wrong. There was no doubt about it. But was I any more right and what was I prepared to do?

    I cried. I told all my friends what a horrible husband he was. I enlisted his parents against him. But I wasn't being a submissive wife. I also wasn't doing the things spiritually that I needed to do to be in a right relationship with God and that is where I had to start from. Until I was ready to say "Okay God, I'm going to let you be Lord and I'm going to stop complaining and whining and generally being selfish" then I couldn't do my marriage much good.

    You see, I can't changed how my husband acts. I can't change the way he thinks, I can't change the things he experienced in his past, I can't change that his mama spoiled him, I can't change that his daddy taught him it was cute to curse, I can't even change the kind of socks he likes to wear! But I can change me.

    I change the way I respond to him when does something stupid. I'm not his mama. I don't have to tell him that he is wrong, he's a smart man, he can figure it out for himself. But first and foremost, I can change my relationship with God and in doing so God will change my relationship with my husband.

    I'm going to have to divide this here because of limits on the length of posts. Next post I'll tell some of the constructive things that I did that helped my marriage immensely.
     
    #31 menageriekeeper, Nov 9, 2007
  12. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    Honestly, I would characterize it as an abuse situation looking back on the way things were before he left and you are right, it sneaks up on you. Time will tell, but he claims to have had an epiphany. Says he realized he has issues he never dealt with and used his drinking to keep me at arms length along with a laundry list of things I didn't do right (says he needed to blame someone other than himself). He has not done that since he came back.

    One of the first things he did, after we started talking, was write a letter of appology to my family. That is something totally out of character with him. He has blamed me for years for all of our problems. I'd like to think he had a life changing event but old habits die hard and I know it. While things seem quite different now, that could be the pink cloud they talk about in AA. (He won't go to AA but he has been in counseling). Time will tell. I think that's my problem. I need time before I could even think about accepting him as the authority over me. There's too much bad that's happened between us. I'm too used to having to fight for myself and don't yet trust that he's really changed and not just manipulating the situation to his advantage. That would be his modus operandi in the past.

    As a Christian though, I know you can have life changing events. His counselor thinks he has had one. The problem is we can't just take the past to the trash dump and leave it. It still haunts everything. Especially since we're still dealing with issues with the kids because of it.

    I'm really starting to wonder what his motive is for wanting to latch onto this idea that he has the authority. I've pretty much held everything together for years. He really hasn't been the responsible one. So why latch onto the idea that he needs the authority? I have a feeling this runs much deeper than my job or what I earn.
     
    #32 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
  13. abcgrad94

    abcgrad94 Active Member

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    Since you've explained more about your situation in your last few posts, I understand better where you're coming from and why you feel the way you do. From your first couple of posts, I understood this to be an argument about money and authority. I think most marriages experience those types of disagreements at one time or another. What you've shared, though, points to abuse. You're right, this runs much deeper than money issues and it's something that will take much time and effort--and hard work.

    Please do not equate submission with tolerating abuse. I doubt anyone here would tell you to continually "put up" with blatant abuse, especially when your kids are included. I believe in submission, not stupidity. There's a big difference!

    You asked before how to know when to draw the line between submission and abuse. I cannot tell you what to do. I do know that if you submit yourself to God and have a desire to obey him even if it means self-sacrifice, He will guide you and bless you.

    I will pray for you and your situation.
     
    #33 abcgrad94, Nov 9, 2007
  14. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Addiction problems are hard. It is NOT being unsubmissive to insist that he get regular ongoing treatment for his problem. I'm going to suggest that you also seek help and info on alcoholism so you have better more constructive ways of communicating with him when he is on a binge.

    Still, some of this you have to deal with within yourself. Was it really your conscience that you were listening to when you allowed him to come home or were you feeling sorry for the man you loved? See us women have this curse, it comes from Genesis: "thy desire shall be to thy husband,". We can't always make wise decisions when it comes to our husbands because we see them through our desire to make our man happy.

    We can't make our husbands' happy any more than they can make us happy. Our joy, our contentment must come from the Lord. Everyone's journey toward that goal is different. Some of us are going to climb over rocks that other's seem to be able to go around.

    In my case, when I got right and surrendered my "control issues" to God and started doing what I knew to be right, things got better. What were some of those things?

    Well #1 was to pray before answering! (God has taught me alot about the virtue of staying silent.) A soft answer turneth away wrath is still a viable proverb today.

    #2 was to take God up on His promise that He would supply my needs. This took the pressure off of myself for not being superwoman and off my husband for his bad choices. Now God and I had to get together on the differences in our definitions of the word need, but I have yet to be without food, shelter, clothing, medicine and so forth. And the ways God has supplied some of those needs have been unmistakably Him and even my husband began to recognize it. <insert some praise and shouting here for the Lord and His provision!>

    AFter that my husband and I had a come to Jesus meeting. Do you know what that is? It is a serious discussion about each of our expectations from the marriage and the consequences that will result if certain conditions are not met. He could continue in his path and I would certainly divorce him. This conversation was not about power or control or who would mow the grass, care for the children or bring home the paycheck. Conversations about those things couldn't happen until we both had a clear understanding of what had to happen for our marriage to continue.

    Once we had gotten together and decided our marriage was worth saving in both our eyes and in God's eyes, then we could change the course of our marriage. There were concessions on both sides. There were some things I stood firm on and wouldn't back down. One of those was going to church. I let him blow up and pout for YEARS as I went to church with the kids and left him behind when really he wanted us to stay home and keep him company.

    Our marriage didn't get better overnight. Our marriage is still not healed. But I am. And I know that if it ended overnight and I was left without a paycheck, savings or whatever, God would still supply all my needs according to His riches in glory. And that my friend stops the rage.

    Anger comes from fear. What have you to fear? You have a God that will supply all your need. He has already supplied you with skills to support yourself and your girls. What are you afraid of? When you can find the source of your anger you will find the source of your fear and then you can ask God for His overwhelming grace in overcoming it.

    Like I said, my marriage is not perfect. My children think it is. Our friends think it is. We know better and work hard on it all the time. And God blesses us for our faithfulness. But it started, maybe had to start, with one of us putting our complete faith and hope, not in the other, but in God. I can't repeat that enough. You must trust God, you must lay aside your wants for God's wants and then He will bless.

    I see that you have posted while I worked on this. I'll be back in a couple of hours to answer that, but right now I have children who want to go to the skatepark before the older teenagers get there. While God has taught me to be silent with my husband (occasionally!) I have yet to apply elsewhere! :D
     
    #34 menageriekeeper, Nov 9, 2007
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  15. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    "Was it really your conscience that you were listening to when you allowed him to come home or were you feeling sorry for the man you loved? "

    It's been a long time since I felt love for him and I wouldn't take him back for pity. Honestly, my first reaction to him deciding he wanted to work things out was anger. I liked it better when the divorce (what I wanted) was his fault . He made it my fault if we went forward when he agreed to staying sober and entering treatment. Not surprisingly to anyone on the outside, once I got past the shock of my kids being gone so much, life was much easier without him.

    Here's how I saw it. Either 1: He'll start drinking again under which condition I have proof positive that he can't control it and a good chance at full custody or 2: he really does straighten his act out and my kids get a decent father out of the deal. I had more to lose continuing the divorce with regard to custody because at the time he was staying dry and that counted in his favor (my fear being he'd just start drinking again after custody was settled leaving my kids on their own to deal with it when they were with him).

    It actually was not my intent to get back together. At least not this soon but once he'd told the kids it was like do I put them back on the roller coaster or do we go through the motions, see where we land and then make a final decision later? I went with the latter. Yeah, it was conscience. I told my lawyer that once he'd agreed to counesling I could not fight him. Honestly, he couldn't deal with both a custody battle and his issues knowing that the court would open all counseling records. I would have considered it very wrong to have continued at that point. Love had nothing to do with it. This was simple right and wrong and it would have been wrong to continue to fight once he'd reached his bottom. Just about killed my lawyer to back off :laugh: He was sure we'd won custody at that point.

    Bouncing the kids back and forth between homes was extremely hard on them (what idiot came up with joint custody anyway. Kids are not ping pong balls to be evenly divided between their parents and volleyed back and forth all the time. They need a home and need to stay there often enough to know how to answer the question "Where do you live?". The answer should not be "What day of the week?")

    I believe it is easier on the kids to work on things this way. Even if we don't end up making it, it will be a final decision if we split again and they won't have played the part of emotional ping pongs in the meantime. THEY do not need to deal with whatever their father is going through on their own and, while this was not a consideration, I think it is easier for my husband to deal with his issues with us together. Plus, as I told my lawyer, I need to know what happens when the constraints are removed (both my lawyer and his counselor suggested I leave the divorce active but on hold to hold it over his head). I need to know that when there isn't an alcohol expert watching his every move what he will do because whatever that is, is what my kids will face alone if we divorce.

    You know, I think what bothers me about him latching onto this authority thing is it's too close to what we had before. Him trying to rule me. I don't know why he lit up like he did when this came up. I pray he doesn't see it as an avenue back to the way things were before with God's blessing.

    Just wanted to add that we have defined what will happen for us to move forward. He knows that one drink is a deal breaker with me. We are talking about other things as we go through the love and respect series.
     
    #35 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
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  16. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    What did he say to your kids that made you think you couldn't refuse to live with him or it would cause them more emotional turmoil and can I be nosy and ask how old your girls are?

    I gotta say, it is no harder on the kids to be tossed from one house to the other than it is to live in a house that has constant arguing, bickering and abuse going on.

    Custody issues can always be revisited! Just because the judge gives him a concession now(when he is dry) doesn't mean that later it might not be taken away later (if he begins to abuse alcohol again). You need to listen to your lawyer.

    Just because he agreed to counseling is no reason not to stay separated long enough to see if the change is real. It is not wrong to allow your husband to suffer the consequences of his own behavior. In this case the consequence was that you do not feel safe with him, emotionally and financially and there are things he needs to do to restore your security. You could have postponed the actual divorce and stayed with a legal separation. (I actually know a woman who was legally separated from her mama's boy husband for at least 20 years, until his death. There was no way to reconcile given the fact that he would always put his mama's wishes above his wife's. It was a fact he acknowledged.)

    His going to counseling is a good thing, but what about you? You also have issues to deal with that have built up over the years. You have to deal with the pain you are feeling before you can constructivly help your husband. Anger will dampen out any spark of life left in your marriage if you don't.

    What gives you the idea that your children aren't already suffering emotionally from the turmoil that is going on around them? Take my word for it, kids know everything! They hear every slammed door. They feel the tension in the air when your husband says something that hurts your feelings. They feel it when you say something that hurts his feelings. They can tell when they get in the car if the afternoon is going to be peaceful or not by the set of your jaw. And children often make mistakes when applying the blame for upset in the household and blame themselves. Don't ever think your kids don't know what is going on.

    The drink may only be a symptom of deeper issues. You might need to take your husband's word for that. That he admits that he was actively keeping you at arm's length is clearly a good thing..

    No, but you can forgive him and stop blaming him, while at the same time acknowledging that there are consequences of his previous behavior that will have to be dealt with for years.

    You can't just say, "Well you caused the problem now you deal with it!" and then not let him deal with it. That is too much like revenge. To much like "I want you to suffer the way I have all these years." And you can't repair a marriage with that attitude. You can't fix your children's problems by assigning blame either.

    You in particular need to understand that submission doesn't entail him giving orders and you following them. If this series you are going through doesn't deal with the man's responsibility in marriage equally with the woman's responsibility, then find a different program! His responsibility is greater than yours! But you have to allow him to bear it, to make mistakes and to learn to fix the mistakes.

    It's like this, we women like to complain that our husbands can't clean house but then when they try to help us out, if they don't do things the way we would have, we freak. "Oh my goodness, he washed his dress shirts with his blue jeans!" :eek:

    In the same way you are going to have to learn to hand over the responsibility for things to him. He doesn't want to keep the kids when they are sick. Is that because he doens't feel he has reached a point to where he can care for them properly? Does the idea of keeping a sick child make him anxious to the point of wanting a drink? You are going to have to learn the why behind his reasoning and you can't do that if you can't see beyond the way you want things done.

    I'm going to tell you, my husband didn't have a drinking problem and he still didn't keep the kids when they were sick for more than an hour or so. Poor DH! Men are fixers, things that don't fix give them fits! Give my husband a sick whiny child that can't be consoled because they feel so bad and he's going to be stressed to the max! He just can't handle it. My children didn't want him either. They wanted mommy. I can't explain what the difference was. he can pour kool-aid into a cup and rock a sick baby just as well as I could, but my kids wanted mommy. Daddy was wrestling with and going to Hardee's for a bisquit on the way to school. Mommy was for taking care of sick young'uns. That's just the way it was. Well, is. Mine are well old(9, 12, and 15) enough to do for themselves even when they are sick, but they still won't go to the doc without their Mama!

    If he refuses to help you out this way find out why! It may be he has a real reason and won't tell you for fear you'll make fun of him. Find a different solution. (Mine was to get his mother to come help out. :D)
     
    #36 menageriekeeper, Nov 9, 2007
  17. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    Having grow up in a divorce situation, my opinion is our situation living together is better than bouncing kids back and forth like they're property to be shared equally. Two half homes and two half parents don't make a whole. Plus, I feel I can protect my kids better if I"m with them all the time.

    I don't agree on listening to my lawyer. Neither he or our counselor questioned me once I told them why I wanted the divorce dropped. I just kind of got an "Oh" reaction when I told them why. As in they hadn't thought of that. Lawyers like to fight and they like to keep cases going to they earn money. While my lawyer was a great choice for what I needed, he would have fought to over kill (my husband learned that I do not play around here.)

    I'm not assigning blame. I had to compartmentalize everything to manage the reconcilliation. The issue I have is just being gun shy. While I can forgive and move forward, trust will take a long time. As my mother used to say "You're only given trust once. After that, you have to earn it.". I also have a tendency to assume things that we haven't discussed are the same as before. Mainly because unless he tells me, I can't assume they have changed. He gets mad about that because he thinks everything has changed. While it has, it's not like starting over where you give someone the benefit of a doubt. This time, it has to be proven. That part he does not like.

    Forgiveness has to be unconditional though. If we are unconditionally forgiven, we must unconditionally forgive. Yes, I've given him enough rope to hang himself by by dropping the divorce and him moving back in. That is deliberate. I want to see what he does with the rope. Keeping the divorce active would have been incentive to stay dry and keep working on things but I would never have known if it was because it was his true desire or fear of retaliation. Plus, in his mind, dropping the divorce was an act of trust. The truth of the matter is, I can refile in two day time so there's not that much difference between keeping it active and not. It just costs me $250 more.

    Trust me, if I were blaming, we'd still be getting divorced. There's way too much on this dung heap. I accept that the drinking was a large part of the problem. He says he's finally gotten to the bottom of why he drank (the epiphany). As long as he's not drinking, I can believe things can be different. If he were to start drinking again, it would be a deal breaker and my kids know that. They're 9 and 12 BTW. And we wouldn't be together if we were fighting every day. The arugment over authority is the first real arugment we've had since reconciling. I'm still puzzling as to why this is so important to him.
     
    #37 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
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  18. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Perhaps because he has been so out of control all this time, he feels the need to exercise his authority, maybe just to see if he can. (it's a man thing! :rolleyes: )

    Since it does seem to be important to him, you need find out why. And if you don't believe him, tell him so and go on. It is as your mother says, up to him to earn your trust.

    About your 401 plan, have you really talked to him about upping your contribution or are you going on his attitude before the separation? And not just the 401 but some of the other things you have mentioned. I'm thinking you need to make a list of your priorities and a list of his priorities and sit down together (with a counselor if necessary) and discuss them one by one. If he still hold to his abusive attitude of "you're a big girl, you'll figure it out", it suggests he hasn't had as much of a change as he's playing he has. (Remember the husband is to love the wife as Christ loved the Church. Christ didn't leave us destitute!) If he has really changed he'll be able to explain why he thinks the possible future event of his death before yours isn't going to burden you financially.

    You both must come to the point to where you both consider the other's wellbeing before your own. You also have to learn to accept what the other has to give even if their method isn't the same as yours.

    I wish I could explain myself better, but it's late and my husband hasn't cooked yet! (I don't cook unless I have to!) It really does take some doing to realize, after years of abuse, that finally, maybe, he isn't out to cause you pain just because.
     
    #38 menageriekeeper, Nov 9, 2007
  19. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Wow, a lot has been happening while I was gone :)

    I admire you for the sentence (I underlined above) in your post concerning joint custody. No, you are certainly not insane silly. Imho, the most important thing is putting this into perspective. If you can understand your husbands level, I am confident your life will be much easier.

    In life, people's levels are different. Teenagers are different mentally than adults. A Bi-polar person is often not working to full mental capacity. Alcoholics, alzheimers patients etc.. are not either, as their brains are damaged. In this situation, your husband has been ingesting poison (alcohol) into his system for so long it took 12 weeks just to clear the fog. It is likely tricky to know what level he is, and what he can handle at the moment.

    Yet now, imo, your husband is gone.

    You have a new person with a lower functioning brain living with you.

    I believe this is why he can't understand what you state above in your post (I underlined it) with regards to the kids.

    Imho, to follow biblical commands regarding submission and authority over you and the kids is irresponsible. He is very ill, and needs to continue with one goal, to remain sober.

    You are both working on this love and respect seminar, but it is probably geared towards two mentally functioning adults. But you can improvise. As you know, if he begins to ingest more poison (alcohol), he may be a danger to you or the kids, financial or otherwise. He is or was mentally abusive to you and the children already. You do not know what his brain will do (snap?) when/if he keeps poisoning himself. He is not in any position of biblical authority at this moment, nor can he be. Headship in the Bible is a very huge responsibility.

    Through time, if his brain fully heals, then it might possibly be fair to divvy out the financial responsibilities. Then you can be more confident he has the ability to be trustworthy. Until then, you can't trust. But keep plugging at the marriage seminar (with no expectations imo).

    Right now, I don't think you fully understand how sick this man is. Otherwise you would not be asking about reducing your retirement $$ (401k) because your sick hubby, who has the mental capacity of a child, told you to.

    Until you look at him as the sick person he is, you will carry anger.

    For now, I would think of him as another one of your children, but try not to treat him as one. It appears he is obsessed with this biblical authority and pressuring you not to invest in your future, obtaining more control financially, is not showing mental stability. It is distracting him from his main goal imo. It is reflecting his brain damage, his illness, so maybe you could explain this to the counselor or whoever runs the love seminar.
    Sitting down, making important decisions regarding your family may not be wise. Again, it may distract him from his goal of remaining sober. You mentioned you were young when you married, he is 10 years older. He may be mentally young for his age, so he chose someone young he could relate to. If so, I would try to accept it, people can only function at the level they are. It's unlikely he will grow up now, even if his brain heals fairly well.

    Submitting will be a balancing act. Honestly, it should feel weird to be intimate with him due to his cognitive abilities. I liken it to an adult being intimate with a teenager. I'm not saying it is wrong.
    It might be nice to explain to the kids his brain level isn't up to par, but "we're working on it" in a positive manner.

    Right now, imo, his goal must be to stay sober. That's it. This focus on your paycheck will only distract him from what is most important, his own healing. If he presses it, then discuss money issues with him very politely, then tell him you will take what he says into consideration. But remind him, he needs to focus on remaining sober.
     
    #39 Joe, Nov 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2007
  20. ivorytickler

    ivorytickler New Member

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    " He may be mentally young for his age, so he chose someone young he could relate to. If so, I would try to accept it, people can only function at the level they are. It's unlikely he will grow up now, even if his brain heals fairly well."

    This is very true. Much of our issues stem from the fact that he's 12 years older than me. His maturity level matched mine when we married but I grew up. While I was mature for my age, he was immature for his and since I was young, I had a ways to go.

    I'm aware that he is sick WRT his past drinking. His counselor tells me it will take a full year for him to recover as far as he's going to and then it's WYSIWYG. I am pleased he's made as much progress as he has. Honestly, I thought he'd pickled his brain by the time he left and that the damage was permanent.

    A person who drinks stops growing emotionally. They don't resume until they stop and then they pick up where they left off baggage and all. It's like time freezes for them. All the garbage they tried to drown by drinking is right there waiting until they wake up.

    Yeah, he's often like having another kid :laugh: but not nearly as bad as when he was drinking. I wish I could say he's made a full recovery but he hasn't. He probably won't. Where he'll land, I don't know. I'm just going for workable here. If I end up with more than that, I guess I win.
     
    #40 ivorytickler, Nov 9, 2007
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