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Featured Subtlety of wrong doctrine.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Oct 7, 2019.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Although I am going to use a popular song as a demonstration, this thread is to explore ways the assembly should be aware of “the little foxes.”

    When is doctrinal error allowed just because ....?

    Here is an example:

    “Come behold the wondrous mystery” (Come Behold The Wondrous Mystery Lyrics — MATT PAPA)

    Then the song continues as if Christ’s death, resurrection, ascension, and return was a mystery!

    Each line starts with “Come behold the wondrous mystery.”

    Now, Colossians presents that the mystery was not hoist but the church in which the gentiles would be grafted into the believing Jews. The prophets were never given such information. It was hidden, secrete a mystery.

    So what else is presented to your assembly in which doctrinal error or even compromise is allowed?

    Is there a study lesson, a book study, a esteeming of a person in which is given a pass because it seems right, it sounds good, it tickles the fancy, ... but actually teaches error?

    Your turn.
     
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  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure I understand the objection here. I had never heard of this song before, but followed your link and see no problem in the term "mystery" as used there. There is not just one mystery in the NT. The term "mystery" appears in 22 verses in the NT, and several times is used referring to the Gospel:

    "9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him" (Eph. 1).

    "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel" (Eph. 6:19).

    Etc.

    And the rapture is a mystery in 1 Cor. 15:
    "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
     
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  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Colossians makes it clear what the mystery was.

    Hidden from the ancients was NOT the gospel, but that the gospel would be given to the gentles as an inclusive group grafted into the believing Jews.

    All other aspects of the Christ except this, were revealed. Birth (where, when and to whom), ministry (extent shown more often in words such as “that it might be fulfilled as spoken by the prophets...”), death (time, place, manner) resurrection. There was and is no “mystery.” Nothing hidden concerning the Christ.

    There are two mysteries given, one still hidden the other revealed. First is that question by the disciples, “When will you return,” the other, which was referred to by Christ is statements such as, “...other sheep...” and as Acts validates the beginning, the church.

    Here then is my point. If one is going to use “mystery,” it brings with the word that which was once hidden and now either revealed or still hidden. As Paul states, “I show (tell) you a mystery” in speaking of the sequence and resurrection. Such “mystery” is an example of that hidden now revealed.

    Do you know of any NT use in which the word is used differently?

    Is it not used as such in the references that you posted?

    Why then is such error allowed?

    Is error allowed because the rest is all so very good?

    Is that not the way a little fox enters?

    What other unScriptural presentation is allowable because it just is so good except in ....? Not just musically, but by association, or holding loosely foundational truths. The mystery of the church in which Christ died for is a foundational truth. Is it to be held lightly, it’s purity diminished by poor doctrinal presentations?

    Is not this level of discernment to be a standard of the elders and deacons n the assembly, that the immature not be swayed?
     
    #3 agedman, Oct 8, 2019
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  4. Shoostie

    Shoostie Member

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    Agedman, it's hard for me to object to this song, at least if you take it as meaning mystery revealed.

    Maybe I should be surprised, given the popularity of bad doctrines, but usually I don't find content of songs in churches to be objectionable. I have more problem with the style, such as party/drum music, effeminate or Jesus is my boyfriend songs, and hypnotic (Pentecostal) music.

    One of my all-time favorite hymns, that I've heard in a number of churches, has this line, "When I die, Hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away." I'd almost expect with today's dubious excuses for churches that a new song would be something like this, "When my honey-sweet Jesus comes, I'll fly away".
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Nothing’s really a mystery once you know the secret.
    The catch is knowing beforehand... there’s the rub.
    The pieces of the puzzle are hidden in the Scriptures but there was no full understanding until the time they were revealed.

    Rob
     
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But, there was understanding. Did not the priest point out to
    Herod the place of birth? Were not people already looking for Messiah?

    Just because “His own received Him not...” does not mean they did not know who He was. Even the savage man called legion was aware.

    There is a difference between revealing and accepting.

    I visit with folks every day that give no thought that tonight they may be facing an unprepared eternity. It is certain. Death is appointed. It is a matter of accepting.

    But, what was not revealed by the prophets? What was spoken of by the Christ and continues in fulfillment? His church. That which He loves and gave himself.

    Now would it not have been far better in the acknowledged work of the Christ, that the verse declare the wondrous glory, rather than mystery?

    Is that not the message of 1 Peter 5 that the glory is shared just as the sufferings are shared?

    Would not “glory” present a more consistent presentation. When the slain lamb grabbed the scroll from the Father, all heaven rang with praise and glory.

    “Oh behold the wondrous glory...” would make the song biblically sound.
     
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  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, Colossians makes it clear what one mystery was. The Greek word (and the English, by the way), occurs 22 times in the NT. Unless you have exegeted all 22 times, I recommend that you not make sweeping statements like this about the word.

    Again, the word occurs 22 times. To give just one example, you have not mentioned the "mystery of iniquity" yet.

    Yes.

    Not necessarily.
    I do not grant that this song is in theological error. Furthermore, if it is in error, it is not heresy.
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Never stated the error was heretical.

    It is presumptive that examination must be made of every NT use of 5he word “mystery” must be made.

    The fact is that “mystery” does not apply to the Christ as this song does apply it.

    The NT containing other mysteries revealed or unrevealed (as Paul states in Corinthians “it does not yet appear ...” - a mystery yet to be experienced) does not change the facts concerning this specific song.

    However, this song is but an example of “little foxes” such small cuddly things that folks may assume are cute, unimportant, of no grand alarm, yet do great destruction.

    This thread seeks to examine other subtle means used to bring error.

    To give another example, the typical miracle worker is considered by most (and indeed are) charlatans. However, did miracles cease? In books and media there is pressure to agree to certain miracles, yet what discernment is used and taught to determine truth from error?

    Or does the sensual override and cover the error so more error can sneak under the fence?

    Does not the Scripture state, “I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless. I hate the work of those who fall away; it shall not cling to me.” What is more worthless then error?

    John, you performed as the character, Scrooge. Reformation of character is taught as becoming righteous in the story. Few bring to the end righteousness is only found in Christ, not self awakened reform. It is a small matter in most eyes, yet how many carry that same philosophy in rejection of the gospel?

    It is a small fox, but error none the less.
     
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  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, it's good exegesis. You have to know the meaning of a word, based on its usage, before you can exegete its passage.

    Yes it does.

    How in the world can the lyrics to this song cause "great destruction"?
    Actually, in our version of "A Christmas Carol," Scrooge realizes he is a sinner and gets saved. Many have been saved through it. Nowadays we do it every year, and I have happily become a "charity solicitor" instead of Scrooge.
     
  10. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Then tell me a single line of the song that was not revealed to the folks in prophesy.

    Again, it is my view that all aspects of the earthly ministry were previously spoken of by the prophets.

    Apparently your thinking is that some mystery was hidden from the prophets that this song is pointing out.

    So you must show some line that was not for told.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, there is nothing I "must show" you. (I don't respond well to demands on the BB.) And I disagree with your definition of "mystery" that it is always something not "for told" (sic; foretold) in prophecy. I suggest you need to prove that definition before you make demands. Here is a very workable definition of the Greek word from my go-to middle lexicon that differs from yours: "in N.T. a mystery, a divine secret, something above human intelligence" (Friberg).

    Again, I urge you to examine the 27 places where "mystery" occurs in the NT before making these authoritative-type statements.

    P. S. It would be nice if you would answer my request for how this song can cause "great destruction" (your words).
     
  12. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    What part of this is your definition of mystery?
    Definition of mystery
    (Entry 1 of 2)
    1a: something not understood or beyond understanding : ENIGMAThe mystery of his disappearance has never been solved.
    b: a piece of fiction dealing usually with the solution of a mysterious crime Reading mysteries was her favorite pastime.
    c: the secret or specialized practices or ritual peculiar to an occupation or a body of people the mysteries of the tailor's craft
    dobsolete : a private secret
    2: profound, inexplicable, or secretive quality or character the mystery of her smilethe mysteries and beauties of nature
    3a: a religious truth that one can know only by revelation and cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity
    b(1): any of the 20 events (such as the Nativity, the Crucifixion, or the Assumption) serving as a subject for meditation during the saying of the rosary
    (2)capitalized : a Christian sacramentspecifically : EUCHARIST
    c(1): a secret religious rite believed (as in Eleusinian and Mithraic cults) to impart enduring bliss to the initiate
    (2): a cult devoted to such rites
    (taken from: Definition of MYSTERY)​

    It is within the COMMON definition of the word mystery that I produced the OP.

    That you disagree should then put an injunction obliging proof supporting your disagreement. To do so must show and prove by Scripture exactly which line of the lyrics was in fact an undisclosed truth mystery.

    I demonstrated that it was the church that was the mystery by pointing to Paul's statement that the church was the mystery in Colossians.

    It provides no edification when you refuse by attempting to present a non-response to post "demands" stand is leaving you seemingly defenseless. For certainly when you make such a claim as to agree that the lyrics do express what was a mystery, then it is incumbent that you demonstrate such to be the case.

    Therefore, I have used common thinking of the word "mystery" I have asked that you prove that the song lyrics use the word properly by selecting a single line from the lyrics - much less asking that you use all verses.

    Paul speaks of the "mystery" as being hidden Colosians 4:3 in terms of the ministry to gentiles who have yet to hear. Not how the song uses it.
    Paul uses "mystery" multiple times in Ephesians as being hidden as in 5:32 in terms of the union of one flesh of husband and wife is that of Christ and the church. Not once how the song uses it.
    Paul uses "mystery" in the writing of Romans 11 in describing the current and future condition of the Jews and Gentiles. Not as the song uses it.

    And on it could be shown, that in every instance something was hidden and revealed or has yet to be revealed.

    WHERE does the OP get that the mystery hidden from the beginning was THE CHURCH and not the Christ?

    From the statement of Paul in Colossians 1:
    24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
    That dear friend is the statement of Scriptures and is certainly NOT how the song presents.

    Now, for you to prove otherwise, please select just a single line from the song and show how that part of the lyrics concerning Christ was "hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints."

    For certainly, as the OP states, that every aspect of the ministry described in the song was revealed by the prophets and also as the OP noted was known.

    One other, point pertaining to the PS.

    You may certainly disagree that little foxes do not do great damage. Here perhaps you may consider a real life example: (The Fundamentalists and Billy Graham) and/or (When Did Graham's Compromise Begin?)

    Little foxes do great damage.

    Popular does not mean truthful, and little compromise should be even considered when something is untruthful. The fact that it is popular, cuddly, nostalgic, appeals to the sensual should place the highest scrutiny for veracity on not only this song, but any presentation of the gospel.
    For the more popular, the more damage the lie can be accepted as the truth. Just as Eve accepted the deception of the serpent.
     
  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You are not paying attention at all. I already gave verses pointing to Christ and the Gospel as mysteries. That easily covers the usage in the song lyrics. And I already gave a lexical definition of the Greek word for mystery, musterios.

    And you have not responded to any of what I've written. I have asked you twice what "great destruction" (your words) this song can cause, and you have not answered. Yet now you give me a post of 828 words and expect me to answer you? Tell you what. You answer what I've already written first.

    P. S. Concerning your definition, I do not use secular dictionaries to define theological terms. In fact, I oppose said practice. Therefore, I reject your Mirriam-Webster definition as being irrelevant to this discussion.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You gave, Eph. 1, Eph. 6:1, and 1 Cor. 15, each acknowledged and addressed in the post above.

    What you do not seem to desire to admit is that the word is used inappropriately in the song by pointing to evidences that were not mysteries.

    I gave you Webster, and you don’t like it. Fine.

    I gave you Scriptures, and you don’t think that is enough, that is fine.

    What you have not done is take even a single phrase from the lyrics and prove that it was previously hidden from the OT writers.

    I dare say you cannot, so the truth of the OP stands.

    Btw, the NT never presents the life and ministry of Christ as a mystery either.

    The closest it comes is Paul’s statement concerning the Christ and church relationship being that expressed in the husband wife relationship. That is not the presentation of the song.

    Now prove to me you really now what “mystery” means inthe a Scripture, how it is different then public dictionary meanings, and at what point the life and ministry of the Christ was hidden from the OT writers.

    Your the one who raised these issues. I presented the song as a mere example encouraging others to contribute warning of other items of danger. But your drilling down is without foundation unless you can actually prove your claims.

    One other point. I did address the destruction in the above post.

    I admit my posts are long.

    Suppose I spent too many years lecturing.
     
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  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    How about if I just give you every single verse in the KJV and Greek that uses the word defined in my post #11? (You have yet to interact with it.) Then you can do a word study and get back to me. :Coffee In reference to the song, for your convenience I will underline the verses that directly apply. (To be clear, the song refers to several mysteries: incarnation, propitiation, cross, resurrection.)

    Mt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

    Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:

    Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

    1Co 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

    1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


    Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

    Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

    1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

    1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Re 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Re 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Re 17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Re 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
     
    #15 John of Japan, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:20 AM
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  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    What a waste, prior to understanding the gospel it and the Christ it reveals is a mystery to that person. This is obvious to all but a few.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Nope. All you did was bring up the Billy Graham vs. fundamentalist controversy, which was not a little fox. It was a huge lion. It divided evangelicalism in a way nothing previous or since has done.

    What I asked was how this specific song can cause great destruction, and you did not answer that.
     
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  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Ok, John, let's see if any of these verses use mystery as the way the song presents it as it pertains to the actual lyrics.

    Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29).


    Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29).

    Not how the song uses the word. The song is not about some being able to discern and others not.

    Not how the song uses the word. The blindness of some and awareness of others is not part of the song.

    Not how the song uses the word. The song states nothing of the kingdom which has already been acknowledged as the true mystery - the church of mingled Gentiles and Jews (Colossians 1:24-29). THAT is the mystery of the gospel. It was NOT just to the Jews but to all, and was hidden from the beginning of the world.

    Not how the song uses the word.
    NOTE: SEE HIDDEN from before the world? John, your posts are not helping your thinking of approval of the use of the word "mystery" by the song.

    Not how the song uses the word.
    Besides, you have yet to demonstrate your own knowledge of just what the "mysteries of God" actually involves? For Paul states it very clearly what that mystery is in Colossians 1:24-19.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word. That God brings brought Paul awareness doesn't present that the Christ was a mystery. How was something revealed to Paul that was already revealed?

    Not how the song uses the word. Again, Paul is hardened in using "mystery" as that which was hidden and not revealed until Christ revealed it in statements such as: "I have other sheep ..."

    Not how the song uses the word. See the words "...from the beginning of the world hath been hidden in God..."? What part of the lyrics do they present that which was "hidden in God? NONE. Which is the point of the OP.

    Not how the song uses the word. This verse has already been dealt with in a previous post.

    Not how the song uses the word. John, the MYSTERY of the gospel was not the death burial and resurrection - all were foretold, all were accomplished in history. but what was the mystery was that such was to be available to the Gentiles! That the Church would be a blend of both Jews and Gentiles. Just as Romans and Colossians teaches. But NOT what the song presents.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word. What part of the lyrics actually state something HIDDEN from the beginning of the World? The birth? The life? The death? The resurrection? The establishment of the kingdom as King of Kings? NONE!

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word. AGAIN the use of mystery in this verse is the inclusion of Gentiles and Jews into the church (kingdom, bride).
    The MYSTERIES of Christ? NOT ONE of them is presented in the song which is the point of the OP!

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word. What is the "mystery of faith?" Just what was the commission that was given to Timothy as regarding the deacons to hold true too? Was it not the foundation stones of the doctrine of which Peter spoke and the Lord responded, "Upon this rock (statement by Peter) I will build my church..." ? Did you miss that the deacons are to be about the building of the church?
    Is this what the song is presenting? Nope.

    CLOSE! But not quite! The song states nothing of any of these presentations. Yet, if we were engaged in horse shoes you might have a leaner at best. But obviously, the verse has no bearing on how the song uses the word "mystery."

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Not how the song uses the word.

    Now John, certainly you can see that in every case the word "mystery" is used as that formerly hidden and no longer hidden, or as yet to be revealed? Indeed, I have yet to find a single verse in which the Scriptures do not use "mystery" in such a manner.

    Now that you know how the word is used in the Scriptures, perhaps it will be wise to go back and apply how the word is used in the lyrics. Is it used appropriately?

    Is there even a single line of the song was hidden from the beginning and revealed or yet to be revealed?

    So far you have only strengthened the OP's view.[/QUOTE]
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But you see I did answer the question. I used the personal experience you went through and have first hand understanding. Your grandfather considered and supported Graham until the little foxes discerned by Jones Sr. were finally revealed to your grandfather in a manner he could no longer ignore. By that time, damage was already done, and it became extremely divisive as all little foxes allowed in the garden result. Jones Sr. discerned the problem when it was small insignificant "foxes."

    But you know this - you lived through parts of it.

    I used it as an example how something seeming very little and insignificant can result in great damage. How many. years between the warning of Jones Sr. and the removal of support by your grandfather? They were both right, but what sadness lay between them, and what damage continues to even this day?
     
  20. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Actually, that is not how it happened. There is voluminous correspondence between Rice and Graham in the John R. Rice Papers at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where I have done research for my upcoming book. And none of the issues were "little" in any way, shape or form.

    Rice's concerns with Graham included:
    1. Graham's support of the SBC cooperative program in late 1955 through a letter to the news organ of the Texas Baptist Convention. Rice strongly opposed the cooperative program. This concern was not shared by Jones Sr., who was not a Baptist. This is when the Rice-Graham relationship began to break down. Rice was angry, because this was a huge issue with him--not a "little fox."
    2. Graham's refusal to agree with the "masthead" of the Sword of the Lord in 1956. Rather than say he would stand against modernism as the masthead said, Graham resigned from the cooperative board of the Sword. This was not a direct concern of Jones, since it involved the Sword and not cooperative evangelism.
    3. The concerns of Rice and Jones finally coincided when Graham decided to have liberals on his crusade committee in 1957. However, Rice had been writing Graham about this issue long before the actual crusade. Rice was his own man. He didn't need Dr. Jones, Sr., to tell him when to take a stand, though they were best friends.

    Just to be clear, the scenario you spoke of, Jones keeping Rice in line, is that propounded by Bob Jones, Jr.--and he was a cad. :rolleyes:
     
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