Successful black people and how they got that way

That is hillarious!!!!!!!!!! </font>[/QUOTE]Who knows anymore what he is.

 

I wouldn't argue with the idea that hard work is a key to being successful in life. What the discussion may have missed and what affirmative action tires to correct is the problem of a lack of opportunity that minorities often face. Though the potential in this country is seemingly endless, the playing field is not level. Many bright young people simply miss out because of this problem of a lack of opportunity. I don't know if affirmative action is the answer but something has to be done to try and correct the serious mistakes of the past. In this country it is a shame that every bright person doesn't have a chance to shine.

 

Because you're ignoring those people who may have not succeeded on such a grand scale, but those who have become productive members of society, BECAUSE they have been helped by the government. You're creating something of a straw man here, for every person that is mentioned that has succeeded without help, I can name an individual that has been able to live a life of normalcy because of the help that was given to them.

I'm also concerned why you think that all blacks wallow in self-pity. So many black individuals are proud people who don't want to be on welfare, and they work their rear ends off to be able to get off of it. Please don't stereotype.

 

Here are some stats for you. Most come from Bok and Bowen's "The Shape of the River: Long-Term Consequences of Considering Race in College and University Admissions." (1998). Bok and Bowen studied African Americans who were let into institutions from affirmative action.

So these people really do succeed! Wow!

So we would consider these people successful - and one of the main reasons that they are successful is because of affirmative action. Interesting.

More interesting stuff.

Wow - so these people give back to the AFrican-American community, hoping to level the playing field even more!

This study also demonstrates that African Americans who attended selective colleges are more active than their white classmates in civic activities, including community and social services endeavors, and political activities. Almost 90 percent of all African American graduates from selective institutions are engaged in one or more civic activity. African American men, in particular, are more likely than their white male classmates to be involved in such activities and are much more likely to hold leadership positions.

Also, Bok and Bowen find substantial evidence that the SAT is a much worse predictor of success for African-Americans than for Whites.

And let us not forget that our president would not have gotten into Yale on just his merits. A type of favoritism allowed him to attend. Why is this right and affirmative action wrong?

 

Joseph and all, this issue is MUCH more complicated than just what is being discussed here.

Both the African blacks and the Chinese were originally brought to this country as slaves. Why, then, would the Chinese end up with a reputation as hard workers and intelligent people with solid family structures while the blacks ended up with a reputation almost the opposite?

I think perhaps there are at least two major causes, both of which have impacted us to this day.

In Africa, it was the blacks who often betrayed their own people, making them available for slavery. In addition, slave owners in the United States (and elsewhere) did not care much about family units, and so families were split up. Unlike the Chinese, the blacks had no unifying culture to hold them together, as black tribal warfare seems to have been a constant through much of Africa's history.

The Chinese, on the other hand, not only were united as a people and culture, but part of that culture was an incredibly strong identification with family. In addition, the Chinese were brought into slavery not by their own people but by the whites who 'Shanghaied' them and stole them via other means.

Today the black and Chinese subcultures remain. As a result, the blacks have what is probably the highest divorce/desertion rate in the nation and the Chinese have the lowest.

This has a great deal to do with how their children do later in life.

But there is a more insidious cause of the problem. Here I quote from a general biology lecture on Nematodes:

Two genera of nematodes cause serious human debiliation: these are the hookworms, Ancylostoma duodenale (the old world hookworm) and Necator americana (new world hookworm). Their larvae live in soil for the 1st 2 instars as harmless bacteria-eaters.The third instar enters human blood (by being eaten or by forcing its way into the skin, usually up a hair follice or wound), then is coughed up from the lungs and enters the gut. Unlike Ascaris or Enterobius, these species use their tough toothed anterior ends to browse on gut villi, causing serious localised damage. Each worm causes losses of about 0.5ml blood per day, so a typical infection of 100 worms leads to 50ml blood loss per day. This causes weakness, anaemia and general debilitude, with mental retardation developing after years of infection. These species are commonest among communities where people walk barefoot in faecally contaminated soil - the dwellings of the very poor. Not just the third world; hookworm was an endemic problem in the poor blacks of southern states in the USA. The ill health resuoting only increases poverty and has been seen as a cycle of deprivation. When the hookworm lifestyle was elucidated it was hailed as “the worm that causes poverty”.
www.chezshaw.demon.co.uk/work/zoology/Nematode.doc

The blacks in the south suffered a growing reputation for laziness, shiftlessness, and general lack of intelligence (playing nicely into the hands of evolutionists later!). One of the reasons might be simply because they worked barefoot out in the southeastern fields of the United States. The Chinese came to the West, working on the railroads and in the mines, both of which required shod feet. The West is also dryer, so the infections picked up from the soil are quite minimal.

And so the subcultures developed in the United States, boosting the Chinese in many ways but handicapping the blacks.

Will affirmative action help? In some cases, yes. In many, however, no. As this thread testifies, although we may take Chinese (or other Oriental) doctors and lawyers for granted, black doctors and lawyers and other professionals are considered noteworthy. If anyone takes the time to actually study even the cases on this board, I am willing to bet that one or both of two conditions will apply to the vast majority of names mentioned.
1. They had healthy parents
2. Their families were intact.

It's not just the amount of melanin in the skin, in other words -- it is a lot more complex than that.

===============

Edit: read Scott's posts which were posted while I was working on this one. Scott does show the enormous gains made by the blacks themselves in combatting the problems mentioned. So perhaps we also should be very careful not to paint all people of color with the brush strokes that we currently use to paint the inner city folk? Of ANY color....

 

Sigh... What did I say? Please read it again. You're ignoring a segment of population who was helped by affirmative action and welfare.

Shane I., Walter J., John H., Darnell B., Fred J., Isaac H. Six African-Americans who were either on welfare, or who were admitted to a college because of the opportunity afforded them by affirmative action. All of them are friends who I have seen succeed. All of them hard workers, who were able to achieve because of the help of the government. You argue an unprovable point. Had Isaac and Fred not had welfare, they would most likely be dead of starvation. They will admit as much.

The six men I mentioned were victorious over the barriers that were there as well. It is sad that you do not understand that. It also goes to show that many of those who have been mentioned may not have benefitted directly from affirmative action or welfare, but their parents did, enabling them to be at a place where they could succeed and raise their children well (such as Rice and Thomas)

 

I don't think there is any doubt that what you call affirmative action and what we call civil rights, has been a hurdle hopper for many people of colour and ethnicity blocks. On the other hand, I do believe in just that, equal rights and not intervention. Each person will rise according to their abilities given equal opportunity.

It is interesting, and important, to note that in the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, the goal was to get Blacks to register for the vote. They had the right to vote, but registering was not always equal or fair. It took the marches and government action to get just that. Often a White would register and was asked a simple question that any fool would know. The Black was asked to name the 3rd wife of the fifth vice-president's second child...That is not an actual question, but you get my meaning. To-day, the act of registering for the vote is virtually automatic, but it took that "liberal" intervention to get that action to begin with.

Cheers,

Jim

 

And that's the point. Equal opportunity. Currently, such equal opportunity does not exist for so many of our minority students. It just doesn't. A person's head must be in the sand to not see that - that or they have never been to the inner cities of our country.

 

Let me give an example of how "must hire a minority policy" can work against an employer. This is a true story.

A friend owned a successful woodstove shop and needed an extra clerk. This shop was operated as an educational outlet. It was not just a sell a woodstove to anyone who has the money. Sometimes he said NO to people.

It is known that Blacks and Asians just don't use woodstoves in Canada. He had a Black applicant who qualified in every other sense, except he was Black and from Africa.

The owner wrestled with the situation and hired a white person for the position. Remember, this is a business and not a charity. In essence, he violated Civil Rights, but he made the correct choice for his business.

Not to appear prejudicial, he also hired the Black person, but gave him back shop jobs and not selling on the floor. Same wage.

He explained this to the Black person who said it was ok. The Black fellow, however, took the matter to the Civil Rights court and my friend was fined.

At what point do we tell the truth, given the current laws? I think he did the right thing, but paid the price because an inequitable law exists which gives one rights at the expense of another.

Would you buy a woodstove from someone who has not had experience with one? How can he instruct people on how to operate a woodstove safely and properly?

Equality, given the right circumstances, or all things being equal.

Cheers,

Jim

 

You said yourself that the applicant was "qualified in every other sense, except he was Black and from Africa."

If that is true then the case could be made that the owner was predjucial. I assume that this happened in your neck of the woods. What specific law was he cited as breaking?

 

I don't think Helen's remarks on blacks and Chinese are entirely correct. First, I question whether most Chinese came here as slaves, and even if they were forced to come here in a few cases, slavery was not legally recognized for the Chinese as it was for the blacks. So the comment that both Chinese and blacks were slaves is not correct. Second, why do blacks have a reputation for laziness in some quarters? I say in some quarters, because I think some of that reputation is merely due to racist attitudes. But there may be a reason also for real laziness that may be shown by blacks. For one thing, if you look at the historical record, blacks in general did not accept the fate as slaves without some resistance. Some rebelled, some killed themselves and some killed their children, rather than be slaves. Others may have used a more passive resistance, and that is slowing down the pace of work on the plantation or not caring about whether they actually produced much or not. I suspect many whites would have done the same. Why aid the oppressor in his cruel oppression of getting labor without paying for it. So I believe that if there is a reluctance to work on the part of some blacks, it may trace back to habits learned over the years as slaves.

 

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;1. I believe he did come from a poor family in the South. Somehow, he made it without affirmative action or reparations.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Are you absolutely sure that Clarence Thomas never benefited from some program designed to help blacks? My memory is vague but seems I read somewhere that he was admitted to Yale on the basis of one of those programs.

 

Tanker, I live in the old gold mining area of the 49ers in California. YES, the Chinese were Shanghaied and used as slaves here. There is no question about that in this part of the country!

In fact, in many cases, Blacks were treated more fairly here than either the Chinese or the Mexicans!

 

Actually he was not qualified. He had no working knowledge on the use and safety of woodstoves. So the owner was not predjuiced, he hired someone more qualified, or at least had the qualifications needed for this specific job.

 

Regarding Clarence Thomas:

According to his biography by Andrew Peyton Thomas:

"Thomas benefited from affirmative action throughout his career; a bright and ambitious young black man of his era could not have failed to. He supported affirmative action as a college student, but soured on racial preferences after learning that some of his classmates and faculty at Yale Law School questioned his intellect because of this assistance."

And here's something of interest from Stanley Fish: "the low self-esteem that comes from wondering if your success was based on merit is preferable to the low self-esteem that comes from never getting a chance to succeed in the first place."

 

I choose Brother Fred Luter--pastor of the Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans, LA and the first African American Southern Baptist pastor to preach the Convention Sermon for a gathering of Southern Baptists!!

For a white man like me--Fred Luter is one of my heroes of the faith! One of the few SBC "leaders" I have had an opportunity to shake hands with!!

I believe with all of my heart that he rose to leadership ability--not by some sort of affirmative action(as in Jesse Jackson) nor by apartheid(as in Nelson Mandella)---but by just being himself and letting the Lord Jesus Christ lead him along!

I sure wish his preaching ability would rub off on me!

Brother David