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Featured Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by atpollard, Jan 21, 2021.

  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    OK, so let's revive THEOLOGY just for our sad brother in Christ, "SavedByGrace".

    Supralapsarianism or Infralapsarianism?

    Did God choose His plan of salvation BEFORE He created people, thus knowing when he first began the work of forming Adam that God was creating both people to end up in heaven and people to spend eternity in hell (because the fall was part of the plan from the beginning)?

    Did God create mankind first, and only chose his plan of salvation after the fall of Adam made it necessary?

    (Is that theological enough?)
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Great some meat at last!

    As I have already said Supralspsarianism cannot be biblical. Let's see what others think
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Both are true. Infralapsarianism needs Supralapsarianism to be true. Neither came first.
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    both cannot be true! next...
     
  5. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

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    Scripture doesn't tell us. It is pointless speculation.
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I believe only in the first part of infralapsarianism, as being Biblically correct, that "God foresaw and permitted the fall of man". But not that which says, "after the fall he then decreed election as a means of saving some of the human race".
     
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    why would you say that? It is very clear that Scripture does tell us that "God foresaw and permitted the fall of man". He could not have been the "cause" of the fall!
     
  8. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Well, lots of opinions but very little scripture or attempts to explain or support any position. I have to put my daughter to bed, but maybe tomorrow I will pick a strong position and attempt to defend it.
     
  9. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

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    I believe that this issue is best left up to God. Instead of worrying or arguing over when God decreed what, our concern should be on proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ to all who need to hear it.
     
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  10. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    The man wants to talk about Theology.

    That does not seem like an unreasonable request for a Christian forum. It certainly seems better than discussing politics.
     
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  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm not here to argue, but I'll weigh in with my own opinion:

    I'll go with "Supralapsarianism", since I see that the names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 17:8 ), and the believer was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestinated to their adoption as children ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

    To me, the clincher when I looked into these two "Reformed ideas", was when I saw that He foreknew individuals ( Romans 8:29-30, Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139 ), predestinated and then set into motion all the rest, as well as afore preparing vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:23 ) to glory.

    When I was first exposed to this some 15-16 years ago, I remember getting angry when I realized that God had set things up in the Garden and allowed them to play out as He had...
    But then I remembered, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
    Who am I to question what the Lord does with His own, especially if we are at fault?

    According to Romans 1, we botched it and have no one to blame but ourselves, collectively.
    If He chooses to pardon one and not the other, that is His right and privilege as the my King.
     
    #11 Dave G, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
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  12. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    this is what is called theology! If you are not interested, then simply don't read here
     
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  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    look forward to reading this
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    That’s my answer to most things theological.
    Good articulation. :Thumbsup
     
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  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Anyone who thinks the plan to redeemm a fallen man came only after man fell doesnt know God very well.

    However, this topic is about useless.
     
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  16. Guvnuh

    Guvnuh Active Member
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    Maybe not useless but it is endless.
    Our finite brains will never know the whole.
     
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    As A and B.
    Not looking at the reasons.
    There are 4 possibilities.
    A is ture. B is false.
    A is false. B is true.
    Both A and B are false.
    Both A and B are true.

    Now looking at the reasons.
    Please explain your understanding.
    Why do you say both cannot be true?

    Now God's knowledge is absolute omniscience. Not forseeing anything, God already knows before Creation. Creation is a temporal act attributed to God. A cause by the uncaused Cause. All causes are temporal or they would not be a cause.

    Now that being said, please make your case. Thank you.
     
    #17 37818, Jan 22, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    OK, here goes.


    PREMISE:

    Supralapsarianism!! With two exclamation points because God not only KNEW that Adam and Eve would sin and need a Savior before God created man, but God knew that most of their fallen progeny would REJECT that savior and be doomed to eternal separation. In spite of all of this, I believe that God DESIRED what was to unfold from Adam to Christ to the final Glorification because it was the GREATER GOOD for both God and Man.
    (I trust that is a strong enough position.) :)


    DEFENSE:

    First a brief philosophical argument. God is, by definition, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. God MUST have known what would happen (or God would have only been ‘a god’. God certainly could have prevented events from unfolding but did not, so God clearly allowed it. God is good, so what He creates and what He chooses to do is good, so allowing man to sin and Christ to die must have been good (or God would have not done it).

    Philosophy is fun, but ultimately not satisfying. Let us move on to Scripture. I will proceed from the assumption that all scripture in the 66 books of my bible is true and God Breathed. Therefore, it is authoritative for determining accurate facts about who, what and why of those events and matters which it describes.

    [Gen 1:26-31 NASB]
    Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, [I have given] every green plant for food"; and it was so. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​

    Man was created both “male and female” and in the ‘image of God’ and “very good”. In fact, everything God created was very good. How can something claimed to be very good by a perfect God contain a flaw so well hidden that it “accidentally” leads to evil and the condemnation of both the race and all of creation? I do not believe that it was either a flaw or an accident at all. It was a plan … a wonderful and a perfect plan.

    [Gen 2:15-17 NASB]
    Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."​

    So a few quick notes on staging. God planted the Garden. God placed man in the garden that God had planted. God placed the tree in the garden that God had created with the man that God had created. God told the man not to eat from THIS PARTICULAR TREE.

    God could have placed the tree on the top of a mountain on a small island across a body of water from the Garden, so Adam could see it on the horizon and, if he really wanted to disobey God and eat from it, then Adam could swim across the open water and climb the mountain to get to the tree. Thus, there would be no “accidents” or “mistakes” or even “momentary deceptions”. If man wanted to sin, it was still possible, but it required some real effort. God did not place the tree on a mountain on an island. God deliberately placed “temptation” in the middle of the garden.

    [Gen 3:24 NASB]
    So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.​

    God clearly demonstrated no lack of ability to prevent mankind from accessing a tree if He really desired for us to NOT eat from that tree. That flaming sword could have been guarding the first tree and might have given Eve pause before even thinking about listening to the snake. However, God did not do that.

    Since this is getting long, let’s just pause here and ask WHY?

    Rather than venture too far into speculation, I will go toe to the line and stop at this point. God COULD have prevented sin but God DID NOT prevent sin (so far that seems irrefutable), therefore I conclude that God CHOSE not to stop sin …and all of God’s choices/decisions are RIGHT/GOOD. So God knew what would happen, staged events to happen and allowed events to happen … because that was part of His perfect will and plan (and somehow better than the alternative).
     
  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    no it is not! you are well wrong!
     
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, If I want to take a stronger position, I think I will need to argue for some form of Hypercalvinism and a sadistic god ... which is unbiblical. So I think that is about the strongest position that I can take. ;)

    Opinions are like bellybuttons: everyone has one but that doesn't make them important.

    Don't TELL me I am wrong, SHOW me where I am wrong!
     
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