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T Rex vs Cro Magnon

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Johnv, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    JohnV, my NASB says bronze not brass. So, what's your point??
    It was a sidenote about a translational error that may interest some. It had nothing to do with the topic. That's why I noted is as a "sidenote".

    As for a behomoth being a hippopotamus, you should read the definition in Job again.
    I read the Hebrew translation for bhemowth, which is water-ox. The water ox is what we today call a hippopotamus.

    No hippo has a tail that bends like a cedar tree. That is symbolism to show how massive its tail was.
    Cedar trees are long ans skinny, with scraggly branches. Sounds like a hippo tail to me.

    By the way, I doubt your statistic is true regarding most Christians not believing that Genesis is historical narrative.
    I didn't post such a statistic.

    John, he's not interpreting it. He's taking it at face-value.
    Which he's allowed to do. I take it as face value as well. An allegorical face value, not a factually narrative one.

    That's your belief, and you are welcome to it. However it was written as a factual narrative and accepted as one for several thousand years, up to an including the present, by many of us.
    A six day creation is by no means the only narrative that has survived. It was not an issue of contention for the early Greek and Roman churches, who not only had differing beliefs about earth origins.

    Christ referred to it as factual.
    That's assumed, imo. It's just as likely to assume that he was referring to it as allegorical, just as he referred to other allegorical narratives, which could also be assumed to be factual.

    Strongs, which is what you evidently used, is giving the current understandings of these words.
    You mean Strongs thinks it was a hippo too? I must be in good company, then. Actually, it's something I remember from Bible college. I have a Hebrew-to-English dictionary that agrees. I did not look up the Strongs reference, but Strongs appears to be in agreement as well. It'a also referring to a hippo in the Easton's Bible Dictionary of 1897, and Webster's Dictionary of 1996 (unabridged).

    Why must I take a six day creation at literal face value, yet I can't take what Job meant by behemoth at face value??
     
  2. martyr

    martyr New Member

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    JohnV, sorry about the mix up on the statistic that Galatian had printed up.
    As for taking literal what Job was saying, I have no problem with that if, as you say, you are also taking the historical account of Genesis literal.
     
  3. martyr

    martyr New Member

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    One more thing. There are some fossils of a hippo type dinosaur that matches the description found in Job. A cedar tree may not be massive like a redwood, but it's heighth and width still dwarfs a hippo tail.
     
  4. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    "Tail" may be a euphemism. Read the verses carefully, and take a look.
     
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    It could also mean what it says. That would be a shock, wouldn't it?
     
  6. martyr

    martyr New Member

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    How in the world could it be a euphemism?? Unless of course, you have changed the meaning of the word. If so, please inform us what the new meaning is.
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Well, the problem with that is that we have two people (me & thee) who both think that what they see is obvious. To me, it's perfectly clear that it's a hippo, and others would agree. You, OTOH, think it's obviously a dinosaur, and others would agree.
     
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    right, John...best description of a hippo I ever heard! [​IMG] :rolleyes:

    What strength he has in his loins,
    what power in the muscles of his belly!
    His tail sways like a cedar;
    the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
    His bones are tubes of bronze,
    his limbs like rods of iron.
    He ranks first among the works of God,
    ...Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
    or trap him and pierce his nose?


    Let me know when the tiny little tail of the hippo 'sways'!

    And I have seen plenty in zoos. Seems they have been captured...

    But if you really want to think that is a hippo, ... nevermind.... :D
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There are some fossils of a hippo type dinosaur that matches the description found in Job.

    Once we follow that light of reasoning, we get a little vague, though. The Hebrew word is "water-ox" which is what they called hippos, so it's clear to me that the verse in Job was referring to a hippo.

    Otherwise, one could hypothetically say that Jesus referred to dinosaurs when he said "look at the birds of the air", since there are bird-like dinosaurs and flying reptiles.
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Let me know when the tiny little tail of the hippo 'sways'!

    The Hebrew word is chaphets which doesn't mean "sway". It means simply to "bend". This is supported contextually that the Hebrew word used word for "tail" is zanab, which inferrs to flapping or wagging, not swaying. The hippo tail indeed looks straight, skinny, and scraggly like a cedar, which bends in a wagging manner.
     
  11. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    And the winner of this verbal boxing match is... :D

    Seriously though, I have a question. If the Earth is in the 6000-10000 year range then why haven't we found any T-Rex or other dinosaur corpses like so many of the wolly mammoths that have been found? I lean toward the YEC position but this has always bothered me.
     
  12. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    ChurchBoy, everything, but EVERYTHING, depends on the conditions in which they were buried. The mammoths are in ice; therefore the corpses are preserved. Without that ice, flesh rots.
     
  13. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Helen,

    I agree that everything depends on the conditions. I thought that extremely dry conditions can preserve corpses. Recently I saw a show on mummies found in South America. They are thousands of years old and they were remarkably well preserved. They were nowhere near any ice or snow but they were found in extremely dry almost desert conditions. Also, haven't dead animals been found in tar pits?

    [ April 30, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: ChurchBoy ]
     
  14. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Yes, we have rare cases where flesh and skin (and even feathers)of dinosaurs have been preserved.
     
  15. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Are there any websites that discuss these cases?
     
  16. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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  17. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Thanks Galatian. By "preserved" I meant actual bodies. Several wooly mammoths and the "Otzi" guy found in France are well preserved "corpses" not fossilized remains. My question is IF we were to find a T-Rex corpse mostly intact (similar to the wolly mammoths) what kind of impact would it have on the scientific community?
     
  18. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Hmm... it would surprise people, that's for sure. There are some instances where leaves millions of years old in shale are found with intact tissues and even green coloring (which rapidly blackens when exposed to oxygen) to the point that one can even tease out the stringy tubes that carried water and nutrients.

    And there was that T-rex with bones still containing a bit of hemoglobin. (it appears that red blood cells were not present after all) Interestingly, the T-rex hemoglobin was immunologically most like that of birds, as predicted by evolutionary theory.
     
  19. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Well, we generally have fossil impressions of skin and feathers, but that's all. There have been one or two exceptions of tissue remnants (such as homeglobin). But these finds are incredibly rare.
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The mammoths are in ice; therefore the corpses are preserved. Without that ice, flesh rots.

    While some mammoths have been found in ice, most aren't. We've found mammoths in southern climates, and their remains are skeletal, and date to the same time frame as woolys found in ice. As for jurassic or triassic animals, none have ever been found preserved, let alone carbon dated to an era close to humans or wooly's.
     
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