Featured T, U, L and I of the Tulip

Luke, if they hold to sound doctrine they would be saved.

Like Calvinism?

Skan might be an Arminian, I am not. I do not believe a person can lose their salvation as most Arminians believe. Skan is entitled to believe whatever he wishes..

What? That is exactly what it is saying, it is telling the disciples to go out and teach people. If Calvinism is true, teaching the non-elect is futile, and teaching the elect is unnecessary. If God simply regenerates you, makes you spiritually alive, born again, then why is teaching necessary?

You are correct it does not teach that God must regenerate a person so they are able to believe. You cannot provide a single verse of scripture to support that. But the scriptures do teach that those the Father has taught, those who have learned from the Father shall come to Jesus.

It is also wrong to say the scriptures teach a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe when you know as well as I do that no such scripture supporting this exists. If it did, you would quote it.

How can a person believe in Jesus if they have never heard of him? Absurd.

How ironic, that is what YOU DO. You teach that men must be regenerated to believe when it is never stated in scripture even once. The scriptures do say that faith comes by hearing the word of God, Jesus said those that HEAR the Father and are taught by him will come to himself. I have complete support of MANY scriptures to support my view, you have NOTHING.

Again, how ironic.

It says no such thing, it says those who have heard from the Father and have been taught and learned from him shall come to Christ.

The great commission shows how people will be saved, they will be taught from the word of God.

What are you saying? That some magical force comes out of the preacher's mouth and regenerates people? Ridiculous. People are saved because they hear the preaching and understand it and place their faith in Jesus.

And you constantly use the teachings of men.

Show it. Paul shows that unregenerate men receive the Spirit by hearing the word of God and believing in Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13.

Then why did Jesus say blessed are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness?

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

What you fail to understand is that Paul was quoting Psalm 14 in Romans. These verses were not speaking of all men, but the "wicked".

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Paul is speaking of fools, atheists who deny God exists. Read in context. If you read just a little more you would see he distinguishes between these atheists and those that fear God.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

David was not saying ALL men are fools who deny God, and Paul would be in error to teach this. David is speaking of especially wicked men, atheists. These men are also spoken of in Romans 1. But David also speaks of "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.".

And you claim I proof text! How hypocritical.

This passage is speaking of the "deeper things" of God, go back and read.

Absolutely true, but this does not say you must be regenerated to believe, it doesn't even mention faith. You read into scripture what is not there.

Yes, but this does not say a man cannot turn from his carnal mind, only while he obeys his carnal mind he cannot obey God. It is like saying that while your children are rebellious they cannot please you or obey you, but that does not mean they cannot turn from their rebellion and obey you.

And I could compile a great list of the errors of Calvinism.

 

Is that what you think salvation is???

For anybody.

You can be a PERFECTLY good Arminian and believe in eternal security.

Jacobus Arminius himself was unsure on that point.

Have you not read Jeremiah?

God wants his word published to the whole world. It is NOT just to save the elect.

It is a savor of life unto them who are being saved and a savor of death to those who are damned.

The Word is the means whereby God's spirit regenerates, saves and sanctifies men.

The point is that is the verse is not to be used to teach that men do not have to be regenerated in order to believe. That is how you used it and you abused that verse.

That particular verse does not teach EITHER.

So your quoting of it to prove that regeneration does not precede faith is EXTREMELY bad hermeneutics.

I have quoted them many times and have quoted them in this very thread.

They absolutely CANNOT.

Reread the statement.

It is stated repeatedly as I have shown you.

The WORDis the TOOL God's Spirit uses to regenerate the lost.

It is both the plow and the seed.

Yep. No one on earth disagrees with that I suppose.

THE WORD regenerates people, Winman.

I use the Word of God rightly divided.

You PERVERT 90 percent of the verses you post as prooftexts because you don't know how to interpret the Scriptures you constantly quote.

I agree.

That's what regenerate people do.

ALL unsaved men are wicked, Winman. Do you not know that??????????

Every man is a fool without Christ, Winman. do you not know that very common and well known Biblical truth.

And, just for the record, atheism is not what the psalmist is referring to here.

David was saying that ALL unbelievers are wicked in these ways. Paul clarifies that that is what David is referring to in Romans, when he utilizes other Scriptures along side this scripture which say, "They have ALL gone... ALL are sinners... NONE doeth good, no not one." Paul uses THIS very argument to prove that ALL men need to be saved when he says in 3:23 "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Verse 23 is not sitting out there all by itself. It is linked to these passages which say that NONE seek after God, NONE doeth good , no not one.

See, Winman, Arminians, Molinists, Calvinists and the like ALL recognize that these things are linked.

You do not because you don't know how to interpret Scripture yet, and you will never know until you recognize this deficiency of yours. You cannot fix it until you know it is broken.

 

It does, and you have used scripture in other posts to bolster your view. I still disagree , but, yes, you answered my question.

 

So how do you discard the message from God as recorded in Ephesians 2:1-8 [NASB].

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

We were dead, obviously not physical death, but dead with respect to God, dead spiritually. While we were dead God made us alive. That seems simple and straightforward enough.

In the 1st chapter of Ephesians [KJV] God through the Apostle Paul tells us:

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

God chose us in Jesus Christ: before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Yet you would argue that God leaves it up to those who live: according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. to freely decide that they will be holy and without blame before him in love.

Well God sees it differently as Paul records in verse 2:5 above: even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

Well that proves it folks.

Van is going to say that Calvinists don't use Scripture no matter what ANYBODY does.

I have already in a handful of posts expounded three chapters of Roman and referenced a dozen other Scriptures.

You have OBLITERATED a text that says that NONE SEEK AFTER GOD and have added "while committing sin" which is not there at all, nor is it ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE. You just pulled it out of thin air to explain away an EXTRAORDINARILY CLEAR PASSAGE that decimates your theology.

Skandelon dealt with from a "non-cal" point of view SO MUCH BETTER than you did.

His interpretation does not add anything to the text nor take anything away from it.

Yours is HORRIBLE.

I'll get to Matthew 23:13 in a post or two. Right now we need to deal with this HORRIFIC mauling of the Romans text that you have committed.

Who cares if it is true that people do not seek God while sinning? That is not what the text is saying. Yes, people do not seek God while sinning. But the text is saying that the unregenerate do not seek God PERIOD.

And, yes, Van the period IS there. There is no "while sinning" qualification. Since there IS NO QUALIFICATION it is CLEARLY understood that the author intended to convey that no one seeks God- period.

But if that were not enough, Paul goes on to make it clearer. He also say, "There is NONE that doeth good."

NNE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD THINK THAT PAUL MEANS BY THAT THAT PEOPLE DO GOOD ALL OF THE TIME- JUST NOT WHEN THEY ARE DOING BAD.

That is the WORST handling of this text, I believe I have ever seen.

I wish you would. Because it CERTAINLY does not say "none seek after God while their sinning."

That's would be the equivalent of saying, "None seek after God while their not seeking after God."

That would be the most meaningless and silly statement imaginable.

Paul would not have made such a meaningless statement. It would be like saying, "No one is dry when they are soaking wet."

Paul did NOT say that. The Bible no where makes such a qualification. You added it.

So, yes, let's please stick to the Bible.

Babes in Christ are to seek after the milk of the of the Word.

Don't accuse Calvinists of not using the Bible when you don't even HALFWAY quote it or even paraphrase it correctly.

There IS NO reference in Matt 13 that shows unregenerate man doing anything toward God.

Nope. It is not there.

I did show it with a dozen verses. Verses that COULD NOT BE CLEARER.

When a man CANNOT EVEN PLOW HIS FIELD AND IT NOT BE SIN- THAT IS TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible CLEARLY says that there are NONE that doeth good that is TOTAL DEPARVITY.

When the Bible says that THE HEART, not just SOME hearts, THE heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above ALL THINGS- that is TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible says that the carnal mind (the only mind with which a lost man is endowed) is enmity with God and is NOT subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN IT BE- did you hear that?- NEITHER CAN IT BE. Listen to it again, Van- IT CANNOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD-
That's TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

When the Bible says that the natural man (a literal synonym for 'unregenerate man') receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God... neither CAN HE KNOW THEM- did you hear that Van?- he CAN'T.

He CAN'T.
He CAN'T.

I want you to get this. The Bible says HE CAN'T.

He CANNOT.

That is, as you put it, "TOTAL SPIRITUAL INABILITY."

I can't imagine what words God could have used to make that any clearer.

If you don't see it, it is because you have gouged out your eyes in hatred against Calvinism.

But it is clearly in the Bible.

Alright. I'll deal with that next post, since these posts are going long. It is 5 am and I have some work to do to my sermon for this morning. I'll get to it later.

But you need to deal with the fact that I have used Scripture to support the doctrine of total depravity.

Yes, it is. I've already explained why. You did not address my explanation of why it is germane, I assume, because you cannot.

It's not there. Saying "it does" is not an argument. Your view is not in that text PERIOD.

Show it. Don't claim it. But the reason you do not show it, is because it is not there. You have added it to support your viewpoint.

I'll have to address the rest of this later.

I will address the rest after you respond to the above.

 

Luke, Calvinists misinterpret what Paul was saying in Romans. Paul was quoting Psalm 14 which his Jewish audience would know. This Psalm is speaking of "fools" who deny that God exists. If you read the whole Psalm you see that God makes a distinction between these men and "my people" and "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge".

Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

It is these "fools" who do not seek God, it is these "fools" who are workers of iniquity. Is God saying this is all men? NO, he says these wicked men "eat up my people", he says they shame the counsel of the poor "because the LORD is his refuge".

This is what Paul is quoting in Romans and the Jews would have known this was not saying all men are fools. If Paul were to say this Psalm is saying all men are fools, he would have misrepresented God's word. Absurd.

The fact is, there are many instances in the scriptures where men sought God.

2 Chr 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.
4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

2 Chr 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

These men sought God. Did they do it of themselves? NO, they had heard the word of God and were convicted, this motivated them to seek God. But there is not one word that teaches they were regenerated to do so.

2 Cor 31:20 And thus did Hezekiah throughout all Judah, and wrought that which was good and right and truth before the LORD his God.
21 And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, and in the law, and in the commandments, to seek his God, he did it with all his heart, and prospered.

Here is another example, king Hezekiah determined to seek God with all his heart. But there is not one word that says he was regenerated to do so.

These two examples alone (and there are more) prove that Calvinism misinterprets what Paul said in Romans. Men indeed do seek the Lord.

 

I have already explained why your interpretation here is erroneous.

Please, go back and find that post and respond to it.

Repeating the same argument is not a debate or a conversation.

All the saved, BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of them, have sought God.

What is your point?

You don't GET SAVED UNTIL you seek God.

But the Bible absolutely could not be more clear that NNE seeks after God UNTIL he moves upon them.

There, quite literally, is NOTHING in the Bible more clear than this.

Arminians and Calvinists alike agree on this.

The only people who don't are people like you who really have no theology at all.

What that passage does not do is undermine the very clear fact that Paul stated in Romans three and is emphasized the dozen other passages I have cited- that no man, while among the masses of unregenerate mankind seeks after God. NONE- that's what Paul said. NONE do good- period. Not "none do good most of the time". No. NONE DO GOOD-PERIOD. There is NONE that doeth good. Paul is clearly speaking of the unregenerate world from Romans 1 to Romans 3 and he says that NONE of the unregenerate world DO GOOD. NONE SEEK AFTER GOD.

This could not be more clear.

You MAUL the Scriptures to hold on to this erroneous theology you came up with for yourself.

I agree. The Spirit of God through the Word of God awakened them through conviction to their need of God and sent them after the God who was after them.

EVERYONE I KNOW believes that this is how it works. What is your point, Winman??

HEZEKIAH WAS A SAINT!!

Who on EARTH in the HISTORY of the WORLD has EVER SAID EVEN ONCE that SAINTS do not seek after God??????

Do you not understand that you cannot make an argument from silence? Do you not understand that principle?

Do you not understand that it meaningless to pick a text and try to make a point by saying that something is NOT there in that ONE text???

Ask ANYBODY, saved or lost, Calvinist, Arminian, Non-cal, or whatever- ANYBODY with ANY understanding of logic and they will tell you that this is a HORRIBLE way to support a viewpoint.

Calvinism does not say that there is never anyone who seeks after God. BILLIONS upon BILLIONS have sought after God. I have. You have. Hezekiah has.

That is not Paul's point in Romans, as I have clearly stated several times now in this thread.

Paul's point is that while man is unregenerate, before God moves upon him- NONE of those seek after God.

Why? Why is it that NONE- NOT ONE- NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH seeks after God before God moves upon him by his Spirit through his Word?

Because all men ARE TOTALLY DEPRAVED.

If all men were NOT totally depraved, you'd expect AT LEAST one person in the history of the world to go off after God before God moved upon him.

But not ONE ever has.

That's total depravity.

 

Luke, no one is arguing that God MOVES upon people. The word of God reproves people, it convicts people. That is altogether different from saying a man must be made spiritually alive to believe, you have not one word in scripture to support this.

This is all about ABILITY. The scriptures show unregenerate man can be reproved and convicted by the word of God and can respond in repentance and faith. You teach that a man must be regenerated before this can happen, total error.

I disagree with your interpretation of what Paul said in Romans. He does not mention one word about being regenerated. He was quoting Psalm 14 which is speaking of "fools" who deny God, not ALL men. All one has to do is read this Psalm and they will see God is not saying all men are fools, because he speaks of "his people" and the poor who put their trust in God.

Well, I would use the word "enlightened" as shown in Hebrews 6. But this is not regeneration. The scriptures in Hebrews 6 show a man can be enlightened and convicted to the point of repentance and yet fall away in unbelief.

You are using wiggle words. To be awakened is not regeneration and you know it.

This is laughable, this is exactly what you do. You claim a person must be regenerated to believe when this is not said one time in scripture. How can you not see this Luke? You believe something NEVER said in scripture, you are arguing from silence! And you are being a hypocrite to accuse me of this. You are blind to your own error.

It is impossible to reason with the unreasonable.

 

No, no. What you contend is that man is not so depraved that he does not ever of his own volition go seeking after God.

What nearly every reputable theology in the history of the Christian church has acknowledged is that NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD until God moves upon him.

The reasoning hundreds of millions of Christians of numerous different stripes have acknowledged this, is because we know that man is depraved- he is born a sinner.

He will not come to the light because his deeds are evil. He loves darkness rather than light.

That's why the Father must DRAW ANYONE who EVER comes to Christ.

No, I don't. And aside from some of our primitive baptist brethren, there are not many Calvinists who DO.

We teach that God regenerates man by the power of his Spirit through his Word.

You just can't see it. You have gouged out your own eyes so that you cannot see it.

ALL MEN WITHOUT CHRIST ARE "FOOLS". ALL. ALL. ALL OF THEM.

What Christian on EARTH, besides you, thinks that sinners without Christ, are NOT FOOLS and WICKED???????

Yes, it is. It is the ESSENCE of regeneration. There are few words in any language that are better synonyms for the word "regeneration" than the word "awaken."

I've shown you numerous TIMES that the Scriptures teach this. Numerous times.

But you don't have the eyes to see it, nor the ears to hear it. You cannot get it because you have so pitted yourself against the exhaustive Sovereignty of God over his creatures that you could not see it if a thousand clear verses saying it were presented to you.

 

I have always said that no man can be saved unless God first reveals himself and convicts a sinner through the word of God. I challenge you to show where I have EVER said otherwise, you cannot show it.

What I do say is that man can RESPOND to this drawing and conviction while he is still a sinner. Jesus himself said the dead (spiritually dead) can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the "living", the "regenerate" shall hear his voice? NO. Jesus said the "dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

The scriptures indeed show the unregenerate can respond to the call of of God, and if they come in faith to Jesus they will be made alive.

Who determines who is "reputable", you? What a laugh.

The reason hundreds of millions of Christians have believed this is because they have been taught false doctrine that is not found in the scriptures.

Agreed, it is a matter of the will, not ability.

I have always said this, but this is not regeneration. The young rich ruler was drawn to Christ, he sought Christ out, but he was not saved.

Give me a break, I have posted actual quotes from Calvinists such as one of R.C. Sproul's associates that say a man can be regenerated for years before he even hears the gospel.

Here is what another Reformed site says;

http://rofgrace.com/what_happens_in_the_new_birth__john_3_3_8

Now, later this same writer says it is impossible to be converted without the gospel, so he contradicts himself. What a surprise.

Yes, and I just showed you a quote from a Reformed writer who says a person is regenerated without "any means".

You are the one who can't recognize his own error, you have repeatedly said an argument cannot be made from silence, but there is not one verse in all the scriptures that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is an argument from silence.

This is not true, thousands of people have believed in God before they heard the true gospel and were saved. They were not fools, they did not deny that God exists.

And it is clear in Psalm 14 that God is not calling all people fools, he speaks of "my people", "the righteous", the poor whose refuge is the Lord, and "his people". These fools are oppressing these persons.

These fools are defined by the word of God, these are men who have said in their heart, "There is no God". A Muslim is not saved, he does not believe in Christ, but he is no fool, he does not deny that there is a God.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

The scriptures show a man can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and brought to repentance, but fall away in unbelief.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There are only two possibilities here, and they both refute Calvinism.

#1 a person can be regenerated and fall away in unbelief and be lost, or...

#2 a person can be enlightened by the Holy Spirit to the point of repentance and fall away in unbelief.

These are your only two options, and both refute the Calvinistic view of regeneration.

You have NEVER shown one single verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. That is impossible, because no such verse exists. You haven't shown it before, and you won't show it in the future. You just falsely claim that you have shown it, but you haven't. No Calvinist has done this in 400 years, it is an argument from silence that you detest so much.

You are correct I can't see it, because it isn't there!

 

NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

What Van, and I think you, have said is that man is not so depraved that he cannot go seeking after God.

Van says that that verse means that man never seeks after God WHILE HE IS SINNING- which is, in my opinion, madness. The verse says no such thing.

Once again- NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

Once again- NNE, Calvinist, Arminian, Molinist, Catholic, etc... NNE in CHRISTENDOM denies that.

There you go again.

You have no point when your point is based on something NOT SAID.

ANYBODY will tell you that Winman.

The Scriptures do not say that the unregenerate while in their unregenerate state come to God.

You are the measure of biblical interpretation then Winman. All the Christians of all the ages have been wrong until you came along.

Since there has not been a Christian on earth in history that has believed like you- you are the first real Christian. Congratulations.

All the works of all of the Christian scholars of all of the world in their deepest, Spirit led desires to interpret the Scriptures acurately- all of those works are bunk.

Thank goodness you came along.

Do you realize there are things that almost every Christian denomination and movement in history agree on that you totally repudiate?

Which are both one and the same.

You CANNOT do what you do not will to do.

This is something that you're not going to get because you're going to say, "People do things they don't want to do all of the time!!"

And no one is going to be able to help you understand that when people find themselves at a fork in the road, a place of decision between two options, they will ALWAYS do, BETWEEN THOSE TWPTIONS AVAILABLE, what they MOST want to do.

For example: a man in the desert has a choice between death and drinking his own bodily fluids.

Does he want to drink his own bodily fluids? No. He wants a tall glass of ice water. But that is not an option. He must choose between the options available to him.

So what will he choose? he will choose what he MOST WANTS between the options available. If he MOST wants to live, he will drink his bodily fluids. If he'd rather die, then he will dehydrate to death in that desert.

Man will always choose only ever what he MOST wants among the options available to him.

WHENEVER there is an option between light and darkness for an unregenerate sinner, he will ALWAYS choose darkness.

Jesus said, "He WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT..."

He CANNOT do what he does not WILL to do when an option to do otherwise is available to him.

Many of us, including myself, DO BELIEVE that a man can be regenerated long before he is saved.

But most Calvinists do not believe that regeneration takes place APART FROM THE WORD OF GOD.

It's not a contradiction, you just don't understand it.

And I DO think that if God so chooses he can regenerate someone without means. I don't know that he ever does, but I am more than certain he CAN. But the normative, if not exclusive manner in which God brings about regeneration is through the Word.

I disagree with our primitive baptist brethren and some others that regeneration usually takes place apart from the Word of God.

Scripture says, "You were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God which liveth and abideth forever."

With whom I would disagree.

I have shown them to you NUMEROUS times.

You don't have eyes to see it, nor ears to hear it, Winman.

How you can believe that sinners without Christ are not fools and wicked is beyond me.

My, my.

Muslims fit PERFECTLY into what the Psalmist is saying here. It is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING TO ME that you think that Muslims are not fools.

AMAZING!

Atheists are in view in verse 1 as the chiefest of fools. But verse two has the Lord looking down upon ALL THE CHILDREN OF MEN and declaring there are NONE AMONG THE CHILDREN OF MEN that understandeth and there are NONE AMONG THE CHILDREN OF MEN that doeth good.

Paul uses this VERY passage to condemn THEISTS- JEWS WHO BELIEVED IN GOD. Paul in Romans 3 is not talking to atheists!!

He is using the passage in Psalms to point out that Jews who believe in God do not understand, do not seek after God and do not do any good any better than the Gentiles.

Yes, I have, many times and for the sake of those who might read our exchange on this thread, I will do so again- not for you, because you do not have eyes to see it yet; but so that people who read will know that we really have shown you passages that teach that regeneration must precede faith- I will show you again.

When I show the numerous verses that teach this yet again, you will still claim that I haven't- but I will do it again for the sake of the reader.

I will try to get to it today. If I can't I will get to it, if AT ALL POSSIBLE, tomorrow.

There are numerous verses and I will do the heavy lifting of exposition once again for you so it will be more cumbersome and time consuming than just responding to a post like I do here.

As soon as the opportunity arises I will show you YET AGAIN some of the many places that the Bible teaches that unregenerate men do NOT come to Christ before they are made alive spiritually.

 

I showed you actual scripture that says kings Asa and Hezekiah sought God. Your argument that they were regenerated is an argument from silence, no such thing is said.

Oh, but the scriptures do say a person comes to God in an unregenerate state.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus said a man has to come to him to have life. You teach the nonsensical doctrine that a man must be made alive so he is able to come to God so that he can be made alive. Total nonsense.

Now, if you don't see a problem there Luke, you are in serious trouble logic wise.

Give me a break, millions of Christians believe as I do, you call them Arminians. I do not call myself Arminian because I believe in Preservation of the Saints, they believe in Perseverance of the Saints which is quite different. But Arminians believe the unregenerate can come to God in faith and be saved.

No, the will and ability are not the same. I have never had the will to jump off a tall building, but I am able to do so. However, if I were to spend a week with you, I may become willing to jump. :tongue3:

This is not so, if a robber stuck a gun in my face and demanded my wallet, I would give it to him, but that is not my greatest desire. My greatest desire is to both stay alive AND keep my wallet. Oh, I would settle to save my life and give up my wallet, nevertheless that is not my greatest desire.

Calvinists love to point out that the young rich ruler was not willing to give up his riches and follow Jesus, but they ignore that the disciples gave up everything, their professions and even their families to follow Jesus. So, some men will will one thing, some will will another. To argue that the disciples were regenerated is an argument from silence. And you yourself have said that is not a sound practice.

Then you believe an impossibility. No man can be regenerated or spiritually alive until his sins are forgiven, and no man can have his sins forgiven until he believes on Jesus. The scriptures are clear that we are justified by faith.

But you believe a man is made spiritually alive before he has believed and been justified. You believe a man can be spiritually alive while he is still dead in trespasses and sins.

You really haven't thought this out, have you?

Faith must precede regeneration, because your sins must be forgiven before you can be spiritually alive.

Why do you persist in falsehood? You have never shown even one verse of scripture that says a man must be regenerated to be made able to believe. No Calvinist has ever shown this, if they did, the debate would be over. Calvinists argue this from silence, which you have said is error. You are correct.

But I have shown you an unregenerate man can respond to God and be saved, I showed you John 5:25 and John 5:40. Both these verses show the unregenerate can hear and come to Christ, and if they do they will be made alive.

I can't wait. You will be the first Calvinist ever to show this.

Please show it. And if you can show scripture that says a man must be regenerated so that he is able to believe, I will tell everyone at BB you are correct and I was wrong. I will start a thread just to do that.

So, hurry up and show me.

 

Ahh, Shakespeare!

 

Van,

Please make sure you're quoting me in context (from the new thread I created). What I wrote was:

Thanks.

 

With all due respect my only concern in this thread is your quoting me out of context from another thread.

Good day.