Featured T, U, L and I of the Tulip

That's your problem, Winman. You think raw prooftexting is a viable means of support.

Hezekiah, for example, was a saint. As I said before BILLIONS OF PEOPLE have sought God.

BILLIONS.

BILLIONS.

BILLIONS.

What you don't have is a passage of Scripture in the whole Bible that says that people who are dead in their sins go seeking after God.

Saying someone in the Bible went seeking after God is meaningless unless you have Scripture that says that while they were dead in their sins they went seeking after God.

The passages you keep providing just point out what every Christian on earth agrees about- that people DO seek after God.

All saints seek after God constantly.

All regenerate people seek after God- without fail.

Since that is not a matter of contention among almost EVERYONE who names the name of Christ, I cannot IMAGINE why you think you have a point in stating that.

Eternal life is what is in view here, Winman. I don't think ANYONE disputes this fact.

The word "life" in the Bible does not carry just one connotation just like the word "saved" does not carry only one connotation. For example, the word "saved" MORE OFTEN than not does NOT refer to salvation of the soul from sin unto eternal life and heaven.

"Life" in the Bible refers to physical life, national life, spiritual life, eternal life, etc...

Life can be a synonym for salvation and the terms CAN BE used interchangeably and sometimes most certainly ARE used interchangeably.

Once again, I don't think ANYONE disputes that.

So to say that when Jesus was saying that these people will not come to him that they might have eternal life (salvation) proves that there is NTHER KIND OF LIFE before salvation (especially spiritual life) is just not viable.

Context is king here in this passage, as in all other passages.

There are Arminians who believe in eternal security. Jacobus Arminius HIMSELF was not settled on the issue. I think he made a pretty fine Arminian. The label Arminian fits you well although the label Pelagian MAY fit you better- I'm not sure.

Arminians believe that man is so depraved that he will not EVER come to God on his own. Arminians rightly believe that God must do a work in man before man will EVER come to God.

Most Arminians call this work- prevenient grace.

Most Calvinists call this work- regeneration. (Although there is legitimate debate even among Calvinists as to whether regeneration actually precedes faith or is simultaneous. I think the Bible is clear that it must precede faith.)

No you are not. You are not able to jump off of a tall building if you are not willing to.

Try it.:smilewinkgrin:

:laugh:

See, you don't listen. That desire is not an option AVAILABLE to you.

NNE can choose to do something that is not available to him to do.

You must ALWAYS choose between whatever options are ACTUALLY AVAILABLE.

You will always choose AMONG THE AVAILABLE OPTIONS what you MOST WANT TO DO.

So keeping your wallet AND staying alive is not an option. So your desire for that option is meaningless.

You must choose between available options. Providence has hemmed you in. Give and live or hold and die. Those are your ONLY options.

You will ALWAYS choose AMONG THOSE EXCLUSIVE AVAILABLE OPTIONS what you MOST WANT- ALWAYS.

It is your greatest desire among the options that circumstances have granted you.

Yes. And the question is WHY? That is really what it comes down to. WHY do some follow and others walk away?

It would be silly to expect every single text that shows one or the other to explain all of the underlying reasons that the individual did what he did.

In other words not every text where someone chose to walk away says, "He chose poorly BECAUSE he was as free to choose one as he was the other and but he chose poorly."

Neither does every single text where someone chooses poorly say, "He chose poorly because he was not regenerated to enable him to choose wisely."

It would be silly therefore for EITHER of us to go to a particular text and say, "See that does NOT say.... so that proves my point."

Do you see how silly that line of reasoning is.

I could say of King Saul's fateful choice, "SEE!! No where in that text does it say that he was as perfectly able to go one way as he was the other. No where in that text does it say, 'his heart was completely free and that's why he chose poorly' so therefore it MUST be true that you must be regenerated before you can choose well"

But that would be stupid. It would be an argument based on something NOT in the text.

That's what you keep doing with the the passages about Hezekiah, Asa, the disciples, etc...

You say, "See!! It does NOT SAY they were regenerated before they sought God so THEY MUST NOT HAVE BEEN!! And that proves that no one is ever regenerated before they seek God!!"

That's is a VERY poor and flawed line of reasoning and weak as pond water hermeneutics.

All you need to do to prove that NNE is regenerated BEFORE they come to God is provide a passage that actually SAYS that. If you could provide a TRILLION passages that do not speak to the subject one way or the other- what have you proven????

All I need to do is provide Scriptural proof that man dead in his sins must be regenerated before he will come to God. If the Bible says that ANYWHERE then it can be applied everywhere.

So, if the Bible in numerous places teaches that sinners without God are so dead in their sins that they must be made alive so that they CAN come to Christ, then we know that every time the Bible shows someone coming to Christ, whether or not it SAYS EVERY SINGLE TIME that they were regenerated first, we know they had to have been regenerated first.

Wrong. This is not true. And it is certainly not true just because you SAY it is.

This is true, but it is NOT because you say it is but because the BIBLE does ACTUALLY say this.

The Bible does not ACTUALLY say the former.

Yep. And?

True.

False.

Wrong.

I have and I am about to do it again in the next post. The debate continues because you do not have eyes to see it nor ears to hear it.

If we could provide as many texts clearly saying this as the number of dollars of national debt in this country it STILL would not be enough for you, Winman.

You CAN'T get it because you WON'T get it.

 

Winman:

The following Scripture does a good job in response to the above remarks. You have seen it before and I expect the same "talking points".

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

see [Strongs #1492]

From Thayers

eidw eido i'-do or
oida oida oy'-da

a root word; TDNT - 5:116, 673; v

KJV - know 281, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 17, look 6, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 667

1) to see
1a) to perceive with the eyes
1b) to perceive by any of the senses
1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
1d) to see
1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
1d2) to pay attention, observe
1d3) to see about something
1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
1d4) to inspect, examine
1d5) to look at, behold
1e) to experience any state or condition
1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
2a) to know of anything
2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
2b1) of any fact
2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
2b3) to know how, to be skilled in
2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th 5:12)

 

I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
He moved my soul to seek Him, seeking me.
It was not I that found, O Savior true;
No, I was found of Thee.​

The Bible teaches that regeneration MUST and DOES precede faith.
Let’s begin with MUST:

Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The carnal mind is the ONLY mind that the unregenerate man has. And it is enmity with God. It is NOT SUBJECT to the law of God- NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
Therefore, a man must be endowed with something MORE than JUST a carnal mind in order to ever be subject to the law of God; in order to ever do anything that is not enmity against God.
So long as all a man has is a carnal mind, he CANNOT COME TO GOD; HE CANNOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ENEMY OF GOD and he CANNOT DO ANYHTING BUT BE DISOBEDIENT IN HIS HEART TOWARD GOD.
So, what must happen so that a man who heretofore has only ever had a carnal mind may come to God? A supernatural work must take place. Something spiritual must come to life in him if he is to come to God.
That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.

I Corinthians 2:4
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here it is again. The natural man is all there is before the new birth. Before the new birth all a man is, is natural and carnal. As an exclusively natural man he absolutely cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. Particularly, in context here, Paul is speaking of his preaching of the Gospel when he first came to Corinth (2:1). He was saying that no man who is natural can receive or understand the Gospel.
Before a natural man can receive the Gospel he must become something MORE than just NATURAL. Something spiritual must come to life within him if he is to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

That’s why regeneration MUST precede faith.

We could literally go on and on with verses like these that illustrate the severe depravity of man which NECESSITATES something spiritual coming to life in him in order that he might turn to God. We could point out that Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 that sinners are DEAD in their trespasses and sins and concludes in verse 8 because of this that every part of salvation is a gift of God- grace and FAITH.
Why is faith a gift of God? Because people DEAD in their sins are in no shape to exercise saving faith.

This is why Philippians 2:13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” God does not just enable us to DO his good pleasure. No. God also enables us to WILL to do his good pleasure. We would NEVER WILL to do his pleasure if he did not work that will IN US.
If God does do this NO DEPRAVED MAN WILL EVER SEEK AFTER GOD. God must give us the WILL to do his good please.

This is why John 1:12-13 says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

They were not born again as any act of the human will. It was all of God. Why? Because it HAD to be. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither indeed CAN it be. Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM.
We could go on and on.

But this skimming of the surface of this first point, that regeneration MUST precede faith, will have to be sufficient for now.

Next we will show that the Bible not only demonstrates that it MUST be this way, but we will show that the Bible declares quite clearly that regeneration DOES precede faith.

 

Mr. Van you are the one redefining. John 3:3 says nothing about enter. According to Thayer the Greek is not translated "enter" in the KJV. So! if you have a problem take it up with Thayer. Perhaps you will be enlightened!:laugh::laugh:

 

Luke, your post is so long, I am only going to answer a few of your questions/statements.

Yes we do. The young rich ruler sought out Jesus and wanted eternal life. He was not willing to trust Jesus, but he did seek him.

The Philipian jailer was dead in sins, and he sought God, he rushed in and asked how to be saved. He did trust Jesus later after he was taught by Paul and was then forgiven his sins. But he was not saved when he came, he had not believed, and until you believe you are dead in trespasses and sins.

You are not thinking critically Luke. A person is either alive or dead, there is nothing inbetween. Until a person believes on Jesus they are dead in sins. The wages of sin is DEATH. DEATH passed upon all men for that all men have SINNED. Until your sins are forgiven you are DEAD.

No person can have spiritual life until they first believe. The moment they believe, their sins are forgiven and NOW they have life. Faith must precede regeneration.

All scriptures says this, I could show you a dozen verses that say the person who believes shall not perish BUT HAVE (following, as a result of) life.

You cannot show one verse that says life precedes faith because it is impossible.

Well, quit talking about it and show it. You can't. There is no such verse in all the Bible. And, as I just explained, it is impossible, you cannot have spiritual life whatsoever as long as you are dead in your sins, and no man is justified until he first believes. Dozens of verses say this, John 3:16, John 20:31...


Luke the spiritually dead can respond to God's call.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Luke, "the dead" can hear the word of God. And those that hear and come to Jesus shall live.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Luke, Calvinism teaches that a person must be made alive so that they are able to come to Jesus so that they might be made alive. Can't you see how ridiculous and illogical that is?

No, the scriptures show the dead can hear Jesus and those that hear and believe shall be made alive. Only after a person believes and their sins are forgiven can they possibly have spiritual life.

Use your head.

 

So! now you are redefining dead!:laugh::laugh: Is that habitual with you, redefining words to satisfy your ego?

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:


Kudos! Bravo! Hallelujah!! Being born again/born from above is salvation. Without it(salvation) you can not, and will not, see the kingdom of God.

 

Old Regular is "replying to this thread", and he's gonna attempt to show me wrong. Just watch.

 

Winman: You and Mr. Van need to get together on the meaning of "dead".

No person can have spiritual life until God gives it. That is called the New Birth sometimes called regeneration.

No all Scripture does not say this. Read John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-10.

Furthermore, no one is saying that faith is not essential in Salvation, in fact just the opposite. The Reformers were among those who insisted that "Justification is By Faith Alone"!

Read John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-10.

Read John 3:3ff and Ephesians 2:1-10.

You are confused about what you refer to as "God's Call"!

In John 3:3 Jesus Christ tells us: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3: 7,8 Jesus Christ tries to explain to Nicodemus what so many have tried to explain to you:

7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

No mention of faith prior to the New Birth. Just the supernatural act of God the Holy Spirit. That is exactly what takes place in the verse you presented above. Those who are Spiritually Dead are made alive by the supernatural work of God!

The will not come because they are Spiritually dead!

Scripture teaches that a person must be Born Again in order to respond to the Gospel.

The verse you presented above [John 5:40] is a good example of this.

The Scripture shows that a supernatural act of God is required for the New Birth before one can believe.

Well said Winman; but don't ignore Scripture and rely too much on your head. Scripture tells us: Proverbs 14:12. There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

Praise the Lord. You have seen the light! You are 100% correct {for a change}. God the Holy Spirit "New Births" [John 3:3, 5:25; Ephesians 2:1-8] those who are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins and then gives them the gift of Faith [Ephesians 2:8] whereby they can respond to the Gospel.

 

Old Regular, it is true that Jesus said that unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. This verse does not even mention faith, so how can it be used for a proof text that regeneration precedes faith?

You are reading into this verse what it does not say. It does not even mention faith.

The same with Ephesians 2, lets look at it.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )


These verses do not prove that a person is regenerated before faith, they refute it.

These verses say we were dead in trespasses and sins. How are we forgiven our sins? THROUGH FAITH. You must believe to be justified and forgiven your trespasses and sins.

These verses show what death is, it is to be condemned for our trespasses and sins. We are DEAD IN SIN. Until your sins are forgiven you are DEAD. You cannot have life, you cannot be quickened while you remain in your sins. And the only way to be forgiven of your sins is to place your trust in Jesus, we are justified by faith.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Do you see what Jesus said? Unless you believe you will die in your sins. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive before you believe, because unless you believe you shall die in your sins. You can't be quickened until you believe.

These verses refute your view, and you don't even realize it.

All scriptures shows that a man is justified and made spiritually alive as a result of believing. Faith or believing precedes LIFE.

If a person is alive for even one millisecond before he believes on Jesus, then he has life outside and without Jesus. This is a very serious error. You cannot have life without Jesus.

You fellas don't realize it, but that is what you are teaching, you are teaching a person has life without Christ. Oh, you will say a person must believe in Jesus, but you teach a person has life before they believe on Jesus. That is life without Jesus.

This is why I write so often against Calvinism, it is a very SERIOUS error.

 

Different Greek word; different meaning.

It was Jesus Christ, not me, who said "see the kingdom of God." So! can we assume you are accusing Jesus Christ of being "shoddy" in His Revelation as recorded by the Apostle John? You will have to take your problem up with Jesus Christ! Given these circumstances the mention of your "ego" is not that fancy word "ad homenim".

 

Question for Luke

Luke, you said this in post #32;

What do you mean by this Luke? Do you mean a person can have spiritual life long before they believe?

Please answer this question.

 

Old Regular said;

This is absolutely false, the scriptures say the exact opposite, that a man is not born again until he first receives Jesus and believes on his name.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 12 shows that to those persons who received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons God gave the power to become the sons of God. Being born again followed receiving and believing on Jesus.

You teach the exact opposite of what scripture says.