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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, May 6, 2015.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #101 convicted1, May 12, 2015
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You are misinterpreting what Jesus said. As DHK already pointed out, it is a play on the concept of "work". No how should one take this answer from Jesus as meaning faith is something God makes you have.

    If one reads carefully the entire exchange on this subject, it will become clear that it is each person's personal responsibility to believe God the Father. Only those who believe will be drawn by God to Jesus, and given to Jesus, the regeneration process.

    John 6:28 - "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They are in a works based frame of mind, wanting to do works in order to please God the Father and gain eternal life.

    John 6:29 - "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent". Why would anyone take this answer as God doing the work of believing on behalf of the hearer? That is wrong. Obviously the context is what are the hearers personally responsible for doing? Jesus said, "that ye believe on him whom he hath sent". It is not God the Father making you believe, it is your personal responsibility to believe!

    After further questioning, Jesus continues the progression of what happens AFTER one chooses to believe...

    John 6:35,37 - "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst........All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". Once a person believes, the Father then draws them giving them to Jesus Christ, the living water/eternal life.

    The Word is preached.
    Hearers are challenged to believe or not believe.
    Those who believe are then drawn by God the Father and given to God the Son.
    Regeneration is complete, Jesus will never cast the born again believer out.

    The error Calvinism is making is they are placing the "drawing" before faith. The passage is clear that the "drawing" and the "giving" is performed AFTER faith is acknowledged.
     
    #102 steaver, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  3. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Verses 35. & 37.......notices comes to me is before believe in me. You are trying to flip the two to make your point. Regardless, you also quoted, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." The Father gives them to Christ before they come. The Father Elects them before they come.

    The verses you quoted contradict your commentary

    *From previous post*
    On this one:
    "This is the one "work" that they can do:
    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    --In fact Jesus made it imperative for them to do so."

    Later on in the chapter, the ask how they can get faith in Jesus. He tells them, you see me and do not believe. Then goes on to say, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." They do not believe, because they Father has given them faith. This was not a work they could do. God has to give them to Jesus. God has to do the work. God has to give them faith.
     
    #103 McCree79, May 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2015
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Verse 35 has nothing to do with the order of things given in the passage. You must take the whole in context. Verses 35 simply demonstrates that BOTH are present. Calvinism is doing the flipping.

    Yes, they are elected through belief, given to Christ, and are drawn, and come.

    There are no contradictions, my commentary is in perfect harmony with the passage. Belief comes first, then the giving, the drawing, the eternal life.

    Not sure what you are referencing.
     
    #104 steaver, May 13, 2015
  5. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    Okay. No hard feelings.
     
    #105 Rebel, May 13, 2015
  6. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    How does one elect himself??? That is like saying a politician elects himself.
     
    #106 McCree79, May 13, 2015
  7. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    V.30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you?

    35-37 "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. "

    They are not able to believe. He is in front of them, and they still don't believe. Because the Father has not given them to Jesus. They can not believe on their own.
     
    #107 McCree79, May 13, 2015
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Brother Joe made this comment

    Old line Primitive Baptists do not deny predestination of people to salvation, but they do deny absolute predestination of all things.

    I to am a Primitive Baptist... In fact was in the church 57 years until the church disbanded. What is meant by the term absolute predestination of all things... Does not this imply that God orchestrates good and evil?... Did God put Satan in Judas so he could betray Jesus?... The Free Will brethren say we control our own individual Salvation... I've been there also and reject that doctrine but I ask also is this not going to the other extreme?... I counseled a brother but I'm not a preacher that came from the Absoluter brethren back east as he was troubled by that doctrine. Other of the PB brethren can add to this discussion as they please but doesn't this doctrine make God the controller and his creation robots?... Brother Glen
     
    #108 tyndale1946, May 13, 2015
  9. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Brother Glen,

    Hello brother. Was the crucifixion of Christ predestinated?
     
    #109 BrotherJoseph, May 13, 2015
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    #110 convicted1, May 13, 2015
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    The scriptures state in fact that it was!... As was the declaration that appointed him in Gen 3:15. We don't deny that. And we don't deny Romans 8:29-30... One that ALL PB brethren especially like to quote. Then again what is the predestination of ALL things?

    Lets start at the beginning!... The fall of Adam!... Was it predestined or allowed?... When God destroyed the wicked and it repented him and grieved him at his heart that he ever made man was that also predestined or allowed?... As understand scripture God works his active and permissive will... I come not to do mine own will but the will of him that sent me!... Active... My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?... Permissive... Brother Glen
     
    #111 tyndale1946, May 13, 2015
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  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Election is the process by which God places believers in Christ. This process is the point of contention among we believers. Most understand there is a free will exercised in the process, many others see it as Calvin did. Both read and study their bibles. In the end it will only matter at the award ceremony when every man's work shall be tried by fire.
     
    #112 steaver, May 13, 2015
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    If one is not able to believe it is because God has turned them over, blinding them because of their continued unbelief. Not all have been turned over into this state.
     
    #113 steaver, May 13, 2015
  14. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I guess as long as you are elected, doesn't matter how :)

    I disagree with you on your belief behind election...as you disagree with me. But as I have learned for other denomination debates on here ....."if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.....that is what really matters.

    I have seen the poison that leads people astray and it isn't Calvinism vs. Arminianism.
     
    #114 McCree79, May 13, 2015
  15. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning

    Sometime after 1200 am (midnight) Pacific time, I will close this thread.
     
    #115 Squire Robertsson, May 13, 2015
  16. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread is closed
     
    #116 Squire Robertsson, May 14, 2015
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