Talking to the DEAD

No, you are asking ME to pray for YOU. You are not praying TO me. God forbid that you should. All prayer should be directed to God alone. Prayer is worship. Worship God alone.

No. Prayer is far more than "asking." Prayer is praising, thanking, interceding, petitioning, confessing. Prayer is not simply asking. In its basic form, prayer is worship. Prayer is due only to God. All other prayer is idolatry.

It is never wrong to ask a living person to pray for you. The Bible teaches that. Many times Paul asked for prayer. "...and pray for me." But never did he pray to anyone but God.
Listen to the words of Peter:

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

The stern rebuke of Peter shows how wrong it is to pray to or worship a man. Prayer is worship--always.
The problem with RCC's is that they take a secular dictionary and then take secular meanings and use them for Biblical words. Biblical words have Biblical meanings, and those are the meanings that must be used when discussing the Bible. Always in the Bible is prayer used as worship. It is never used in any other way but as worship. So please don't try to define it any other way by trying to use a Catholic dictionary or encyclopedia or even a secular dictionary. The Bible alone gives us the proper definition of words. Prayer is worship.

Let me give you some examples:
The dictionary would tell us that the definition of a church is a building where worshipers come together to worsip their God.
The Bible tells us that Christians never had a building to worship in. In fact church buildings were unknown for at least two and a half centuries after the death of the apostles. Thus the dictionary definition is wrong when compared to the Biblical definition of the word church.

The dictionary definition of the word "temple" is a place where worshipers go to worship their many gods, such as a Hindu temple.
--But we know that is not the case--not in the OT, nor in the NT. In the OT, the Temple was built by Solomon and symbolized the dwelling place of Jehovah. In the NT, the temple is the believer, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. Obviously the dictionary is wrong when it comes to Biblical definiitions. The Bible defines Biblical words; not secular or Catholic dictionaries.
Prayer is worship--all the time.

 

Youi mentioned dropping flowers at the grave and saying something at the funeral etc. When I asked you the questions, now you refer to the living person. You better review your previous posts first. Otherwise your posts have nothing to do with this thread.

Check yourself and asses are having something in common first before you ask me if I and horse's hindquarters have much in common!

 

With your lousy English, it's easy to see you have little comprehension. I didnt say anything about funerals, and I said some do these things, not at all referencing myself.

 

Fine, Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxy ask saints to pray for them, just the same as me asking a living being to pray for me...

Once someone dies are they now evil or something?

I think your confused or simply mislead...
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You just started the lousy English first and I returned it to you as the bad words have the tendency to return to the mouth of origin.

My questions were clear if you could remember what you mentioned in your question. Read your own question:

So it could be easy to know whom I mentioned by " they" - the Dead.
You mentioned the lengthy story about the secular customs of dropping flowers etc which apparently insinuated the beautification of the custom of conversing to the dead. Otherwise, why did you bring such questions ?

If you tried to ask such questions to yourself as I asked you, then the answer would have been very clear. That was the point.

 

Because talking to the dead is the title, and presumably the subject, of this thread.

I don't think you would know a point if you sat on one.

 

You have no Biblical precedent for that practice, only Biblical condemnation!!
Why do you insist on carrying out a man-made tradition that is associated with the occult, with condemnation, with that which God calls necromancy and attached the death penalty to it in the OT. If the condemnation of it and the penalty of doing it was so severe in the OT, don't you believe that any rationalization that you can give will still fail in the sight of God?

The obvious and so simple answer here is: Once someone dies; they are dead!
Is this so hard a concept to grasp. Have you never attended a funeral? Never mourned for one who has died? Never helped to comfort one who has "lost a loved one." Do you not understand this very basic concept of death? Those that are in heaven are those that have first trusted Christ as their Saviour, and are now dead. But dead they are. Praying to them will do you know good, but will only bring you the wrath of God.

Me confused? If you lived in the OT times you would be stoned to death for the practices that you carry on, and yet you think that I am confused. Amazing!!

 

1. You didn't remember your own question in your post, and that's why you asked me " who" "to what" " who" " what's it". If you comprehended my questions responding to your own questions, you wouldn't have such questions.

2. You posted the question as if they are from the 3rd party persons. But if you could ask such questions as I mentioned, for yourself, you could easily detect that such worldwide paganism is ridiculous.

3. You mentioned the secular practices, then asked the question if such thing is prohibited conversing with the dead. What do you think about them for yourself? Could you not understand that they are the paganism? Did you ask such question with the notion that the prohibition of such custom is too much legalism?

4. If you understood it was the paganism, why did you bring the question? Is it because they sound nice jokes or are not serious matters?
Remember ! Satan spread well his paganism well over the world!

5. You complained about my comprehension in English, maybe over-comprehension correctly.
But it doesn't make much difference when you mentioned
"persons' lives and places of burial [or arrangements for final disposition] are given" and I took it as Funeral etc. does it make much difference?
What about your English?

Ask any grade 6 student if that English is correct.

6. One thing I must admit to you is that I wasn't very kind to the new participant on this thread, I am sorry to you on that point. I get tough when the logical fighting occurs. But you must remember that you were the one who asked me with the lousy English first, to which I properly responded too.

7. Finally you better think about Jesus Christ teaching about the Lazarus in Luke 16.
Would the flowers laid upon the tomb of the rich man help his spiritual status when he was tormented in the Hell?
Or would the poor Lazarus suffer a lot without the visitors while he is in the bosom of Abraham? What kind of difference would the nice comments and the flowers on the tomb contribute to the Dead?
Any nice words can help the Dead? and can they ( the dead) hear our words?

Again, Alcott, sorry not to have been very kind to you before.

 

Show me from the Old or New Testaments where asking a saint to pray for me, as I would ask my wife to pray for me is condemned.

The condemnation we read in the OT is a far cry from asking a saint to pray for us. Catholics are not conjuring up spirits for the purpose of gaining information.

I remember as a kid my two uncles and their friends (they were teenagers) all sitting in a dark room with candles and a knife stabbed in the middle of the table. Four of them had their hand on the knife attempting to contact a dead friend of theirs…THIS act is what is condemned in the OT. Anyone but a fundamentalist with any common sense can discern the vast qualitative differences between the two.

In addition you’ll have to convince me that those in heaven are suddenly cut off from the vine Jesus shows us in John 15:1-8 which Paul builds upon 1 Corinthians 12:25-27 and Romans 12:4-5.

You may believe that the dead are just laying in the grave waiting for the Resurrection, but those in heaven are alive to God per Mark 12:26-27. In the arms of God they are more solicitous of us than they were on earth. Just as Paul ask the other disciples to pray for him, so now we can ask Paul and the other saints to pray for us.

We are NOT cut off from fellow Christians at death, but are, strangely enough and contrary to your unreflecting thoughts, brought closer. We being the body of Christ continue, if you agree with it or not, in ONE communion, the communion of saints.

The ancient Jews believed in the intercession of saints, see 2 Macc 15:11-16. Jeremiah himself wrote that Moses and Samuel made intercession for the Jews, apparently meaning after their deaths (Jer 15:1).

So DHK, you have a Jack Chick misunderstanding of what necromantic practice is (why does that not surprise me) and you try and force it on the Catholic practice, which isn’t there. Also the term communion of saints and its allied term, the Mystical Body of Christ mean nothing in the vacuum you live in.

Yes, their bodies are lifeless, but what of the soul DHK...Does your soul die at death?
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Because it is relevant to the subject, "talking to the dead;" though I did not bring up paganism. Evidently this thread was misnmamed-- it concerns praying to "saints," or asking them to pray for us, not the general topic of talking to the dead. But I am not inclined to answer your other questions.

 

Praying to the Dead or Saints is only a part of the talking to the Dead, and OP was not intended only to focus on the Prayer to the Dead. But the reality is that few on this board advocate the practices of talking to the Dead other than the Prayer to the Dead, the debate went that way while there are many people and some groups that advocate the Prayer to the Dead.

 

Third Party prayer which may be called the Intercession can be found in the following verses.

1Th 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus
1Th 5:25
Brethren, pray for us.
2Th 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 3:1
Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
Heb 13:18
Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.
Jas 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

( All the Bible quotes are from Crosswalk.com)



You can check from the above verses whether any verse has the Prayer to the Dead, or Prayer for the Dead.

Does Paul ever ask the Dead to interecede for him?

 

Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
--Necromancy is praying TO the dead--exactly what the Catholics do.

You are praying to the dead; plain and simple. That is necromancy, no matter which way you cut it. It is punishable by death.
Besides that your concept of prayer is wrong. There is not a man on earth that can intrecede for you in the way that you speak of. No priest can be your intercessor. No saint, whether on earth or on heaven can be your intercessor. Only God alone can do that. Consider:

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

We have an advocate, a mediator, an intercessor, who is Jesus Christ alone. No saint can take upon himself that work. No priest can presume to have that power. Only Christ can forgive sins. Only Christ can interced on our behalf. Catholics do not understand true prayer at all. It is useless to pray to any saint for it is impossible for them to interceed for you anyway. Only Christ can do that.

The occult is condemned in the Bible; it is true. So is all praying to the dead. Your restricted interpretation of the passage is not the only thing that that passage is speaking of. All praying to the dead is condemned. It is sad that you don't believe the Bible.

Did I ever say that no one goes to heaven? No.
Do the passages above ever show anyone praying to anyone in heaven? No.
Your proof texts don't prove anything. There is no place in the Bible where we have any incident of anyone praying to people in heaven--never.

Paul probably doesn't know that you even exist. What proof do you have that he does know anything about you. Do you ascribe omniscience to him. Is he also a god. Are all the saints in heaven little gods, and God the Father a "Big God"? Have you taken on a belief similar to that of the Mormons? Do these saints all have omniscience, omnipresence (to answer all the prayers of all the RCC's all over the world in all the languages of all the RCC's all over the world? You attribute the attributes of God alone to these so-called saints. Therefore you believe in a big God and many other little gods. Your religion is not better than the Hindus--totally polytheistic, as well as occultic. And yet none of this even phases you. Amazing!

Instead of spouting off RC theology why don't you show me something from the Bible. I was a Catholic for twenty years. I am totally familiar with their heretical teaching. But that is not what the Bible teaches. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches that those that are in heaven know anything about what goes on in this earth whatsoever. What the Bible does say is that there are no tears in heaven. So what makes you think that they will be able to see all the heartache and sin on this earth? But go ahead and believe in your occultic beliefs. Pray to the dead like those in the occult do. God condemns your actions. If you lived in the OT, you would be stoned to death.

1. Maccabees is not and never was Scripture. The Jews never accepted it as Scripture. Thus there is no proof that the ancient Jews believed that way since the Jews rejected that book as totally spurious.
2. Any Jew that did believe in the intercession of the dead and practiced it would have been stoned. That was the law.
3. Every prophet interceded for the nation of the Jews. That was part of their work. We don't live in the OT. We can come right before the very throne of God without any intercessor but Christ Himself. We don't live in the OT, and need no priest or prophet as Israel did. Consider:

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Every believer is a priest before God. Every believer has no need for a priest. Christ alone is the only intercessor that he needs. Your comparison with Jeremiah and Samuel is apples and oranges. It is a ridiculous comparison.

You can stop with the slander. I don't even read Jack Chick. I was a former Catholic who got saved, and with my own objective study of the Bible saw the error of the RCC when comparing it to the Bible. I had to make a choice whether to follow the teachings of the Bible or the teachings of the RCC. I could not "serve two masters." The one gave me eternal life; the other condemned to Hell. I chose God.
The word "saint" means "holy one," "sanctified one," and is used of those who have trusted Christ. If you used it correctly you would apply it only to living believers on this earth. But the RCC has corrupted the term. For example the proper way to use the term would be to say "saint D28guy," saint Eric," "saint Bro Bob," "saint Eliyahu," etc. They are not normally applied to those in heaven.
Consider:
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Almost every epistle is addressed to the saints, and no in no epistle is any saint prayed to.

Yes it does. Man is a triume being. Check 1This.5:23--body, soul and spirit. It is the spirit that never dies. The soul is like the brain, and dies with the body. Read the first two chapters of Genesis. God created animals with a soul. Their souls will not live forever; neither will ours. It is our spirit that communes with God, that will live forever.
They that worship God, must worship him in spirit and truth. It is true that the word "soul" is sometimes used to refer to the entire person or interchangeably with spirit, but generally speaking it refers to the emotional and intellectual part of man, not the spiritual. Every man has a spirit. That spirit becomes alive when man becomes saved.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--They were once dead, spiritually dead, but their spirit came to life when they got saved, and the Holy Spirit came in and regenerated them.
However every person dies. And until the resurrection takes place they are considered dead. It is wrong to pray to the dead.

 

No, that's not enough! No, No, No,No, No, No, No, not, Not, Not, even One :laugh: