Tancredo: McCain, Giuliani would be disastrous for GOP

Did we force 8 million people to go and vote several times in Iraq at the risk of their own lives from the terrorists? I don't believe we did. I think you have dived head first into the shallow looney end of your anti-American Liberal part of the pool.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I would like to see these facts. You must be kidding. Yes, more Iraqi's have died in this war but that is because there are more of them there. It's the law of averages. You must have missed all the reports that we can't get enough of them to join their own police force, military etc... So we stay to do the job. It's not like were asking them to come protect us from terrorism but if they had that many folks wanting to protect their own country from terrorism we culd pull our troops back home. Show me these folks!

 

How many didn't vote? How many voted by force? It was not us that firced them to vote, some were force by the upcoming political machine while others who were not voting for the right person (or ask to vote) were discouraged from voting. Wake up my man, if we register people who are laying in a cemetary to vote imagine how corrupt the process is there... Even democracy isn't perfect, remember?

 

This is not true. Many of them who have died have died in attacks at the recruiting offices, and yet, they keep coming back because they want something different for their country. We haven't pulled back our troops yet because they are not trained well enough yet to take over the job themselves. They are not ready to do the job. When they are, we will happily go home.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Liberal Democrats are notorious for this. I concede the point that Democracy, and any other worldly political system, is not perfect. It is, however, better than tyranny.

Joseph Botwinick

 

So let me takes off me shoes and add this up, the attack was 9/11/2001 and here it is 11/25/06 and we don't have enough trained. That be about 5 whole years. Is the program too long or are your facts from an ignorant perspective? We don't train our own police force that long.

 

The Neo-con plan was for military takover not acceptance of democracy according to their leaders, the Project for the new American century. These guys not only put it on paper they went to Bush 1 and Clinton to attempt to get them to invade and occupy Iraq.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

 

In whose eyes, yours? Tyranny is only bad to those who don't prefer it but some folks wouldn't have it any other way.

I am currently reading a book with testimonies from former sloves of this country. I was shoked, but a few of them said it was must better during slavery. One went on to say back then he didn't have to do any thinking for himself. Mater told him when to put on his coat, come in out the rain, when to go to bed and when to eat.

You can't make a blanket statement and expect it to be best for every living soul. We are all different and different is just that, different.

 

The war in Iraq began in 2003, I think? We have an established police force. I promise you that we didn't have an instant police force after the Revolution. It took some time.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you endorsing tyranny and slavery?

Very interesting.

Joseph Botwinick

 

. . . Iraqis voted when they tore down saddam's statutes . . .

. . . they voted when they placed indelibale ink on their fingers for all the terrorists to see and target.

The problem is that you expect them to act like the USA once they have voted.

That would be an indication of two centuries of democracy . . . not 2 years. IMHO.

 

You are so funny, I love it when you do this. What would it matter if I endoursed either of these systems. I live in a democracy where slavery was outlawed. So I can't have either.

Slavery = I said I was reading a book. Nothing wrong with reading others views is it?

Tyranny = I said it isn't bad for those who prefer it as their form of government.

 

I can't argue this, they did make a statement when they tore down the statue. They likewise made a statement when they drove the car full of explosives into the US chow hall. This is all I've been saying, a group of people will never have one view. Some appreciate us bing there and some hate our presence.

The truth in my view is we won't know if what we are doing in Iraq is serving a purpose or not until years after we're gone. If it reverts back then we know all we did was removed one bad leader to clear the office for another. If it stays a democracy, years from now we won't recognize it as such because they will customize it to fit their Nation. Will we like what they make of it, time will tell?

 

I remember us being there within months of 9/11. There is always the troop build up period before an invasion. There was also the period when we enforced the no fly zone and Bush tried diplomatic measures before we applied force. This was all part of the war to me.

 

I believe it was Afganistan within months of the war. We have been trying diplomacy and enforcing the no fly zone since 1991. This includes Bush Sr. and Clinton. Are you telling me that Clinton continued this war against Iraq since 1991?

Joseph Botwinick

 

It seems you have two positions depending on who you are arguing with at the moment. Earlier, when going at the subject with me, you accused the Iraqis of being savages that killed each other when comparing them to what we would do in the case of an invasion. In the above quote, you picture them as patriots who are struggling to learn democracy. Now which is it? Or will you come back with an answer that subdivides Iraqis? (you know, the good Iraq, bad Iraq syndrome).

Two questions should have been asked before we started this mess. What gives the United States the divine right to spread democracy? and Does everyone on earth want or can they handle democracy? So Guero, heres your sign.

 

1. Of course you have a choice in the matter. Unlike tyranical regimes who force their people to stay in the nation, we are more than willing to allow you to emigrate to whatever nation you wish. I am pretty sure there are still some nations in this world that still have slavery. Pick one and emigrate there.

2. Of course, since those who live in a tyranical nation have no freedom of speech and no choice in the matter, this is pure conjecture on your part that this is what they truly want.

Joseph Botwinick

 

You do know that much of the terrorists are coming in from outside the nation and are not themselves Iraqis, right?

Joseph Botwinick

 

1. Tyranical nations are breeding grounds for terrorism. You can count on it that the way a government treats its own people is a good indicator how they will treat their neighbors. The more democracy there is, the less tyranny there will be which breeds terrorism. It is, therefore, not only the right thing to do, but also a matter of our own national security. Anytime the chance presents itself, we should stand against the evil of our generation and spread democracy around the world.

2. Of course they can handle democracy.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Good move Joseph. The real documented facts would have just gotten in the way of your fanciful fearmongering neocon propaganda again anyway. :thumbs: