Tares of the field

Another drive-by. Oh well.

"The just shall live by faith"

Habakkuk 2:4
Romans 1:17
Galatians 3:11
Hebrews 10:38

Galatians 3:11-13
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

AMEN !

 

Luke 9:55-56
...Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them...

 

Hi Wopik. I was just reading through the BB and started noticing your post. I used to be on this forum probably, oh, maybe a year or a year and a half ago. Used to enjoy it. I was in a good discussion with a guy named "Tim" something, about the 1000 year reign, and whether it was symbolic or not. And right in the middle of it, my computer got "fried". Took me several months to finally replace it. When I got up to speed, I'd lost my BB password. I didn't really have time to post anyway, so I never bothered to get another one. But, reading through your post made me want to post something. I used to be on here as "Jim H.", but when it wouldn't let me use that name I registered as "Jim w."

Anyway, I got to noticing your positions on different topics, and I pulled up your "recent posts" and looked at them. Now, Wopik, your profile says that you're a Baptist. O.K. I'll take your word for it. But I must tell you that I don't know any Baptist who hold the set of views that you do. But I DO know a set of people who DO hold to EVERY view that you've put forth - complete down to the same arguments. That group is referred to as "Armstrong-ites". The followers of a guy named Herbert Armstrong. And his son Garner Ted Armstrong. And the myriads of splinter groups that have broken off from them over the years. It seems to me from reading your post's that you are in lock-step with them.
Example, in a thread entitled "Jews fight Israel"...

The first time the word "Jews" is mentioned in the Bible, the Jews are at war with ISRAEL (2 Kings 16:5-6).

That sentence, Wopik, is a direct quote out of a book by Herbert Armstrong entitled "The United States and Britain In Prophecy". In that book, Armstrong tries to assert that the "10 lost tribes" of Israel migrated to Europe and that Britain is the tribe of Ephraim and the U.S. is the tribe of Manasseh. And that most of the Old Testament prophets were written to Britain and the U.S. in our day, and that we would eventually be taken in slavery by Germany. As punishment for violating the fourth commandment.

3 Days and 3 nights crucifixiore: “I am just wondering if anyone would be aware of which denominations teach the Wednesday n...” http://www.cemnetwork.com

The "3 days and 3 nights" doctrine is one that is zealously propagated by them. In fact, the link you provided to CEM network is run by a fellow named Ron Dart. Dart is a former minister under Herbert Armstrong, and was a teacher at Armstrongs "Brent wood" campus of Ambassador college in England for a time. After Armstrongs son, Garner Ted left to start his own church, Dart went with him. Then, after Garner Ted's serial adultery became too much to keep quite, Dart left to start CEM.

Next, on a thread entitled "Trinity", you posted...

"His" or "Him" doesn't by itself mean the Holy Spirit is an individual person.

This is another Armstrong position. They flatly deny that the Holy Spirit is a "person", but do affirm that Jesus is God. The thing is, they teach that there are 2 Gods. 2 God beings. 1 God "family".

In another thread, under the subject ""Tares of the Field", you post...

According to John, it would be the testimony of God – the Ten Commandments, all Ten, including the fourth.

This post shows your sabbatarian view, which is rigidly adhered to by all Armstrong groups.

Now, Wopik, I could post more examples for you, but I'll stop there. I said I'd take you word that you were Baptist. And, doing so, I'll offer you a little "heads up". You need to carefully and prayerfully consider what you read on these "Armstrong" websites that you're reading. The Armstrong bunch never saw a heretical teaching that they couldn't swallow. Their organization was (and is)characterized by false prophecy, iron-fisted authoritarian rule that ruined many a life and destroyed many a family, and never ending scandals in the leadership positions. As one Baptist to another Baptist, I would caution you to be very, very careful.

I studied Armstrong material for over 6 years. I have a relative who is deeply into those doctrines, and accepts virtually everything Armstrong wrote or said as "gospel".

Now, Wopik, on the other hand, would pretending to be a Baptist when you actually were not one be as big a sin to you as, say, breaking the 4th commandment?

My relative has been to this board before - we've talked about it. You wouldn't happen to be kin to me - would you?

Jim

 

In farming of wheat, Tares are weeds that look like wheat, yet when the harvest comes, they are exposed as weeds because the tares bear no grain.

That is quite a thing to consider in Bible study.

I also am more than a little concerned about the works of Herbert Armstrong and the many splinter groups that have formed, teaching British Israelism and that you must keep the Feasts to prove that you are Saved.

I have two comments, firstly if we did have to keep the jewish law of Feasts and by doing so would be saved, then Jesus did not have to come and save us in the first place.

Secondly, Only the Levites had the dispensation to slaughter the animals that are required to do the feasts. What is it that gives these groups the idea that they have the dispensation to do that? Jesus became the final ever sacrifice and resultingly all animal sacrifice was ended, and do not kid yourself, animal sacrifice is just as much a part of the feasts as the actual feast itself.

If people are being influenced by Armstrongism, you are being decieved into a religion of works in order to earn a Salvation. Call on a Baptist Church where the gift of Salvation and the assurance of it is freely available. It will be the best descion you ever make. Alternativley email a pastor here. Jesus can help you out of the snare.

 

Hi Ben.
I remember you from the last time I was on here. It's good to talk to you again.
I think that with the death of Herbert and Garner Ted, and with the changes that took place in Pasadena in the WCG after Herbert's death, that there's not much being written about the movement started by them. I think the general consensus is that their teaching is no longer a threat to the church at large. I think that's a grave mistake. I think their influence is greater now than in the past. If you type in a subject into a search engine like Google about almost any topic having to do with the Bible, it's a safe bet that in the first couple of pages you'll run across a strongly worded essay on the topic by an Armstrong splinter group.
Their actual church attendance numbers are very small, the amount of money they generate is very small, and they have virtually no presence on the mission field.
But when you turn on your computer, you ARE going to run across them. The internet is their mission field, and they are taking full advantage of it. Their presence on the web is far above their actual numbers.

I think that a rattle snake with a sign next to him that says " Rattle Snake" is far less dangerous than a rattle snake with no sign that's hidden in the mulch around your rose bush. The Armstrong movement used to have a sign next to it. Now, it's in the mulch.

Jim

 

Hello Jim, it is good to see you back again also. Interestingly the original WCOG have ratified the Trinity and the congregations can choose which day they meet Saturday or Sunday. Yet what has happened is that some of the people that were into the original teachings have gone out and formed these Splinter Groups and added a little more legalism to it. For example there is one Church of God group in Western Australia that restricts communion to only those males that have been circumsized despite what Paul says about Circumsizion being no longer required. Yet that is the nature of a number of these groups, and you are right they are a group to very much still be looking out for. Maybe others can add to this list, but the ones I have found are.

Christian Church of God.
Church of the Great God.
Church of the Living God.
Church of God in Christ.
United Church of God.

What is interesting is to read about why some of these groups will not recognise the other groups when there teachings and reasons for spliting out of the WCOG are supposed to be the same.

 

Intercontinental Church of God
Philadelphia Church of God
Global Church of God
Christian Church of God
Biblical Church of God
Twentieth Century Church of God

And on and on. The thing is, most of them do have some truth in their teaching. And I like some of the people in them. Your point about them not having anything to do with each other is valid - and silly, since most of them are doctrinally so similar. I think it boils down to ego. Many of them teach their congregations that THEY, and they alone, are "the one true church". And since their church government is so authoritarian, once the "head man" has made that proclamation, there just ain't no backing down. Their ego and pride won't allow it.
They also operate on a double standard. Anything an "apostate" Baptist (or anyone else) has to say on any subject about the Bible will not be accepted, because they just don't "have the Holy Spirit", therefore they just can't understand what it means - the Bible is "simple", and just has to be "accepted for what it says". (But, accepting it for what it says means accepting the standard interpretation of the group on any given passage.) If you point out a passage that obviously contradicts the groups understanding of a doctrine, then you just don't get the subtle nuances of the meaning of the passage.
Likewise, any preacher or teacher outside the group will be scrutinized carefully for anything at all that he may ever have done wrong to find reasons to reject anything he says, (a practice that I don't have a problem with, I think everyone who sets out to teach the Word should be held to a higher standard), but when the gross misconducts of those inside the group are pointed out, you will be meet with anger and hostility, and will be accused of being a self righteous hypocrite. There just ain't no getting around a double standard like that.
I don't know, perhaps my assessment of their influence in my earlier post was off. Perhaps their constant splintering and breaking off has weakened their impact. All I know is that if you bring up the Jehovah's Witnesses in a forum like this, you'll get a lot of feedback, people are on guard against them. But the J.W.'s have little influence outside their own circle. Bring up these folks, and you'll get no interest. But there's very few topics that get posted on here, even, that aren't influenced in some way by the Armstrong splinter groups. I see it all the time. Links to splinter group web sites, arguments that are published and perfected by splinter groups, and so on.
I think the key is, accept nothing less than Truth with a capitol "T". If those groups are saying something true, fine. When they get of track, don't allow yourself to be fooled by "bull".
Jim

 

My dear Wopik. The 3 days and 3 nights reference above involved Ron Dart's CEM; not Garner Ted Armstrong. You give yourself away even more. Nobody refers to Garner Ted Armstrong as "GTA" except people in that group, that I'm aware of.

To answer your point; so what? I think I've read in the past that the Century One Foundation was started by ex Armstrong people - but it's not even worth taking the time to verify one way or the other. The question is not who and how many believe it, the question is, "is it factually correct"? And it isn't.

But let's digress from that for a minute, and go back to your original point in this post.
You make the point that sin is transgressing the law. You are right. You make the point that the Ten Commandments are not "done away with". You are right. You posted...

Commandment keeping people believe, not that the law will save you, but that the law defines righteousness; and if you are going to live a righteous life before God, you have to keep the Ten Commandments.

and these righteous commandment keepers will shine in the Kingdom of their Father

The Ten Commandments are still, at this late date, the standard of conduct and judgment.

Wopik, answer a question for me. Are you a "commandment keeper"?
Jim

 

Not just the 10 but all 613. Who are you to do away with the 600+ others? If you don't do them all you are under a curse.

Deuteronomy 27:
26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

HankD

 

So?

Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You live by faith or you live by the law, they are mutually exclusive. "and the law is not of faith".

After 70AD it became impossible to keep every jot and tittle of the law even if you previously could, thereby bringing the curse(s) if you try, so why not walk by faith?

Romans 4
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.

Luke 5
36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

HankD

 

Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You live by faith or you live by the law (in all things), they are mutually exclusive. "and the law is not of faith".

HankD