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Ten Commandments Pre cross - Questions

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 20, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This thread is intended to address the following question/challenge from DHK--

    DHK said
    Now if you have been reading the posts, my challenge was to demonstrate through the gospels where Jesus came preaching the Ten Commandments. "You must be born again" is not the Ten Commandments. Neither is the First Epistle of John the word of Jesus. Pay attention!!

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=940706&postcount=316

    [/quote]

    Apparently some find it hard to believe that before the Cross – God’s own Son would honor and promote God’s own Ten Commandments. Which in fact are the Words of Christ in the OT for God the Son – IS the God of the OT!!

    The pre-Cross teaching on the Commandments –

    Notice that when speaking to a non-Christian – non-follower, the reference “the commandments” is still fully understood.

    Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Christ condemns those who would break “the Commandments” of God for the sake of man-made tradition – and this is done while speaking to Jewish leaders and referencing the 5th commandment!

    Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
    Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

    Here again we see the NT writers doing that very thing – as they tell us PRIMARILY of the Words and Teaching of Christ PRE-Cross!

    And of course “His Blood” did a great job of noting the Bible challenged view of those that would even deny the promotion of God’s Ten Commandments PRE-Cross not just POST-Cross.
     
    #1 BobRyan, Jan 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2007
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Can you honestly do that Bob without taking Scripture out of context?

    Bob, a reference to the law is not "preaching the Ten Commandments," the alleged purpose for which Jesus came, as the post inferred. What happened to "rightly dividing the word of truth"?

    Where is this discussion or discourse between the young rich ruler and Jesus (a discussion) did Jesus preach the Ten Commandments. He did not. Why are you reading into Scripture something that is not there? In fact he was using the Law as an illustration that the young man could not keep it; not that he had to keep it. The young man went away sorrowful. He coveted his riches (breaking the Ten commandments) rather than desiring Christ. Christ demonstrated that one could not keep the Ten Commandments, and that he didn't as he claimed he did.

    So what! Christ does not come preaching the Ten Commandments. You are taking Scripture out of context and twisting it. A condemnation does not mean he is preaching a message of the law.

    I hardly think so Bob. This is more Scripture taken out of context. He said that they should keep MY commandments. Three times in that same chapter (John 14); in verse 15,21,23 he says if you love me you will keep my commandments (or words). We demonstrate our love for Christ by our obedience to Him not to the Law. The above discourse in John 14 has nothing to do with keeping the Law, and absolutely nothing to do with Jesus coming to preach the Ten Commandments.

    Christ did not teach them to keep the Ten Commandments. He taught them the gospel. He taught them about the new birth. He taught them the Great Commission. He taught them about his coming death, burial and resurrection. He avoided the law, unless it was deliberately brought up.

    Yes, and they have nothing to do with the preaching of the Ten Commandments, do they?
    The only place "blood" might be inferred in the Ten Commandments is in the command "Thou shalt not kill," but what has that to do with the atonement of Christ? Bob, you are not making sense. Go back and read the original question. Where in the gospels does it say that Christ came preaching the Ten Commandments. It doesn't. In fact it says the very opposite. You deceive yourself. Here is what the Scriptures say:

    Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

    Matthew 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
    The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

    Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    Luke 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

    Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were UNTIL John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
     
    #2 DHK, Jan 21, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Each time scripture is shown to refute one of your traditions or speculations you claim that the "mere quote of it" is taking it out of context.

    This is getting to be a patter.

    It would have been better to respond to the scriptures quoted.

    Then Bob said

    Thus SHOWING Christ's teaching to one who has asked Him for that very thing -- teaching and instruction.

    Matt 19:
    16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
    17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
    18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
    19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR     AS YOURSELF."
    20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
    [/quote]

    DHK goes on to dodge the obvious point that BOTH Christ and his non-Christian student are agreed as to what the "commandments" are ... and the text SHOWS them to quote from the Ten Commandments explicitly.

    This is devastating to DHK's argument that no such teaching can be found in the NT by Christ.



    What kind of "gimmick" is that??? the Teaching of Christ is shown IN THE TEXt - are you now denying that???

    The rich young ruler comes seeking instruction and Christ gives it!!

    The extent to which you are tryhing to ignore every aspect of scripture that does not please you is astounding!!

    The text does NOT say --

    1. What do the commandments say? Surely nobody can keep them - not even you in obedience to God's Word. For Obedience is silly - ignore God's Word.

    2. The text does NOT say "if you want eternal life - IGNORE the Word of God - IGNORE the commandments of God - IGNORE what you read in the Ten commandments"

    3. Christ does NOT turn to His followers and say "SEE -- nobody can keep God's commandments - so just ignore them".

    His teaching is to UPHOLD what DHK claims CAN NOT be followed!!

    in Christ,

    Bob

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Bob notes more inconvenient scripture for DHK's views



    Here we can ALL see Christ condemning the Jews for not fully obeying the 5th commandment - AS IF the 10 Commandments not only had value BUT the Jews are to be CONDEMNED for suggesting man-made-traditions may replace them.

    once again - DHK dodges both exegesis and the text to give his answer...


    But for all DHK's doding it is clearly seen IN the text that the "COMMANDMENTS of God" are UPHELD and taught by Christ as being "THE WORD OF GOD" and as binding!

    Matthew 15
    1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
    2 ""Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.''
    3 And He answered and said to them, ""Why do you     yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
    4 ""For God said, "     HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
    5 ""But you say, "Whoever says to his father or mother, ""Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,''
    6 he is not to honor his father or his mother .' And by this     you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
    7 ""You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
    8 " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
    9 "BUT     IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'''

    When confronted with these inconvenient details - DHK turns a blind eye with his quote above - and addresses not ONE POINT in the text or the argument!!

    How amazing!

    None are so blind as those who WILL not see!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment and so we can see that they were obeying His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (which in fact is quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)
    Quote:
    Luke 23:56
    Then they returned and prepared spices and perfumes. And     on the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.


    thus pointing out that even to the END of His life pre-cross the disciples were being instructed to OBEY the Word of God - INCLUDING the Commandments!

    DHK offers a scripture-devoid response ignoring all inconvenient details in yet another text example..
    But notice the subtle speculation DHK uses here?? You are INSERTING the idea that Christ is NOT God - that God's Word is NOT Christ's that When HE SAYS "KEEP My commandments" as He has BEEN saying in all these examples given so far - HE Means SOMETHING OTHER Than what we read in the Commandments of God!!

    How sad that such eisgesis is still being practiced today.

    The attempt to Divide CHRIST's Word from God's Word is explicitly rejected by Christ in scripture.

    So, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

    Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

    Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

    Notice that John does not try to “divide God” as if God’s commandments are not Christ’s

     
    #5 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:
    And of course “His Blood” did a great job of noting the Bible challenged view of those that would even deny the promotion of God’s Ten Commandments PRE-Cross not just POST-Cross.
    Quote:
    I provided the link - click on it if you need more explanation but the summary is that "His Blood For My Sins" is a poster and I quoted something he said at that link.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why do the Gospel writers take such care to teach us what Christ commanded them?

    Quote:

    Matt 28:
    18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
    19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."


    Here again we see the NT writers doing that very thing – as they tell us PRIMARILY of the Words and Teaching of Christ PRE-Cross!


    And as we have seen in the previous posts --

    #1. Christ used the term "The Commandments" and "God's Commandments" as "The WORD of God" and equates them, upholds them and defends them EVEN when challenged both by would be students AND Jewish Leaders who seek to BREAK them.

    #2. Christ Claims that HIS WORD IS Is Father's Word NEVER does He argue that HIS Word is SEPARATE from the Father - it is one and the SAME Word according to Christ! those seeking to DIVIDE them seek in vain.

    And then When Christ tells us to TEACH what HE TAUGHT (in his parting words in Matt 28) it is the PRE-Cross teaching of Christ that is THEN GIVEN to the World in the text of the Gospels!!

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    For all your verbosity Bob you have failed to answer the challenge. You have danced around it. You have not answered the question. Here it is again.
    Not one of your posts do that; not one. You can't do that. You are unable to. Christ did not come preaching the Ten Commandments, no matter how you twist the Scriptures. Every poster on this board can see right through you. Why do you ignore these verses Bob?

    Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

    Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

    Matthew 11:4-5 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
    The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

    Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

    Luke 8:1 And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,

    Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were UNTIL John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    This last verse Jesus says that the law was until John. It implies that after John the law was no longer in effect. After John the gospel and grace was in effect, not the law. These are Jesus' words. They go exactly contrary to what you are saying. Your problem is with the words of Christ, not mine.
     
    #8 DHK, Jan 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2007
  9. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    Jesus clearly taught that we are to keep the commandments. If the Law was done away with, why did John echo the command when he wrote that if one says he knows Christ and keepeth not His commanments, he is a liar and the truth is not in Him'?

    The Commandments of Christ??

    Luke 10:26-28 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

    Christ did command to keep the Law... the original law. To say that the law was done away with is to deny the above verse, and many others.
     
    #9 His Blood Spoke My Name, Jan 21, 2007
  10. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    yes He is quoting that right out of the old testament
     
    #10 Claudia_T, Jan 21, 2007
  11. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.
     
    #11 Claudia_T, Jan 21, 2007
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Do you also avoid answering a straight simple question.
    In deference to a statement made originally by Brother Bob, I put forth a challenge, which I now make as a simple question: Did or did not Jesus go forth preaching the Ten Commandments--Yes or No>
    It is an obvious No. If the answer is yes, give me one verse to back it up. Give me one verse that tells me Jesus purpose was to preach the Ten Commandments with the emphasis on the preach.

    Demonstrate through the Gospels that Christ came preaching the Ten Commandments.

    Is it such a hard thing for you to do?
     
    #12 DHK, Jan 21, 2007
  13. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Isa:42:21: The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.


    thats a prophecy about Jesus
     
    #13 Claudia_T, Jan 21, 2007
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:
    And THAT point has been shown REPEATEDly in the TEACHING of Christ to His disciples in His CORRECTION to those who were in error on the subject of the Commandments to the content of the GOSPEL TEACHING of Christ as recorded by the Gospel authors.

    DHK turns a blind eye to that entire body of data IN SCRIPTURE and comes up "with a game".



    DHK is arguing that all INSTRUCTION and TEACHING we see from Christ in the Gospels "can be ignored" as long as it is not in the form of a sermon on the mount SERMON.

    Yet even in the SERMON of Christ we point out his strong AFFIRMATION and TEACHING regarding God's Law - God's Commandments.

    But in DHK's new "game" he simply turns a blind eye to it all.

    How sad to be using such a gimmick to ignore scripture!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed that is a great example of the TEACHING of Christ - but can't we just ignore it by a simple "game" where we say "yes but TEACHING is not always the same as PREACHING...in Luke 10 Christ is TEACHINg but not PREACHING so let's ignore Him".

    Oh - but wait!! The Gospel commission to the saints DOES show VALUE for the TEACHING of Christ that some so desire to ignore ...

    Matt 28
    19 "" Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
    20     teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.j

    The "instructions" the "commands" the "teaching" of Jesus turns out to be the CORE of the Gospel commission without any kind of gimmick-gaming about "oops don't tell them what I taught you -- only tell them what I preached" AS IF they are two different things.

    When the defense for any one position requires such gaming-the-text you know it is in error.

    Reader be informed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jan 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2007
  16. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    Teaching, Preaching... whichever you want to call it, Jesus commanded that the Ten Commandments were to be observed and kept.

    And, as BobRyan pointed out, Jesus told the disciples to teach all things that He had commanded them.

    If keeping of the Ten Commandments was unnecessary, then why commission the 12 to teach them? Why include later in the Word that he that does not keep the commandments does not even know Christ?
     
    #16 His Blood Spoke My Name, Jan 21, 2007
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You know what is really upsetting is that someone would go on another thread and act as if he ask Bro. Bob a question he couldn''t answer, when in fact Bro. Bob gave such a person the answer and he ignores it or is not able to understand.


    Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

    Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

    Now, the scripture says, if ever thing the Lord had done and said, I suppose the world would not contain the books.

    The above scriptures give six Commandments the Lord preached to the young man. Jesus said if a man offend in one point he is guilty of all. He said "thou knowest the Commandments", well I think that Jesus quoted them all but if not, he said thou knowest them all?

    Do you think a 3rd grade child could read that and understand that Jesus was preaching the Ten Commandments?

    Why does someone keep sticking his foot in his mouth. It looks like he would finally learn but boy there are some on here that I don't think will ever learn. IMO
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jan 21, 2007
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Preach it!

    The glaringly obvious brought to the spotlight by our brother "HBSMN"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jan 22, 2007
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1. I feel sorry for you if you don't know the difference between teaching and preaching.
    2. Give me one verse of Scripture where Jesus commands specifically to keep the Ten Commandments.
    He never commanded them to keep the Ten Commandments. He commanded them to keep HIS commands. But all of that is moot. You are avoiding the challenge that I originally gave you; the topic of this thread. Why? I only can assume it is because you have nothing to answer. You have been defeated in debate. You cannot give any answer as to where in the gospels Jesus preached the Ten Commandments. Why don't you just admit it?
    The twelve were not commissioned to keep the Ten Commandments. Who told you that? If you can't back that up with Scripture then I will assume that it is ignorance of the Bible instead of calling it heresy.

    Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
    Luke 9:6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

    What did the disciples do? They preached the gospel; not the law; not the Ten Commandments--the Gospel! That is what Christ sent them to do. And that is what Christ did himself. He came preaching the gospel. Haven't you read the Scripture I posted. Do you ignore Scripture?
     
    #19 DHK, Jan 22, 2007
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Interesting, and where in the 10 commandments are these two:

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength

    and

    Love thy nieghbor as thyself.


    Jesus states these are the 2 GREATEST COMMANDMENTS. For some reason though I am having a hard time finding it in those 10. Well duh, they aren't in the 10 they are written in the Law! Yet on these 2 commandments do the the Law hinge. Yet we know the Law is given to PROVE our UNRIGHTEOUSNESS and INABILITY to obey God flawlessly. THis is why the scriptures state that "by the LAW shall NO flesh be justified (or deemed worthy)" So was Christ saying to keep the letter of the Law, if so we need to sacrifice again. Oh wait, that is now to be understood spiritually. So do we live by the Law in the spirit of the Law or in the physical obedience. IF it is physical obedience then by the scriptures ALL of you who hold to the Law will now and forever be condemned. WHy? because there is one Law you can NEVER and WILL NEVER keep as its given intention.

    Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strenth.

    IF even for a fraction of a 10th of a second your mind vears from God as it's center, or your heart with anything that even equates to import, or when you are not living with all your strenth for God you are condemned. For by the Law NO FLESH (no one) is justified.

    This is why Christ alone is savior and on Him alone is salvation secured and assured from NOW through out eternity.

    Scriptures have always been about Faith is key to salvation the Law shows us the types of works that come natural out of that salvation we are securred in. This is why we are not under the Law of Moses but the Law of Faith. We are to keep the Law but it is the Law of Faith.
     
    #20 Allan, Jan 22, 2007
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