Featured The 70th Week of Daniels Prophecy

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Then you are either lying or cannot read. I will present your post #28:

You cannot be so simple minded that you do not recognize that you are attributing the remarks of DHK, which I consider blasphemous to me, OldRegular! Following are part of my comments where I attempted to explain to you what you were falsely accusing me of. But from your response above you do not really care! But again it seems that you are a loyal servant of DHK!
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I pulled the list from a quote you had made and it had your name on it, I meant to just post the list showing what you had asked about, didn't realize it would seem to attribute to you, my apologies now that I see how it came out.

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

during the Tribulation it is quite clear, Revelation 12:6-17

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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Israel is the woman, she flees to the wilderness in rejection of thebeast and anti-christ. She as a nation turns to God and He helps in her flight and HE helps to nourishes her for 3 1/2 years.
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That is utter nonsense, the mythology of pre-trib-dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby and the Jesuit priest. When did Israel ever keep the commandments of GOD and have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

The woman is the Church. That is clear if you post the introductory verses of Revelation 12. GOD cast off all but the elect of Israel some 2000 years ago. The status of national Israel before God is no better than any other ethnic group of unbelievers.

revmwc said: ↑

So all these things God does for her and we see that while the beast and anti-christ are ruling the earth and seeking to war with the remnant of Israel who keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Christ that these things are fulfilled in her:

--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)
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Her transgression is finished, by God, an end of her sin of rejection comes, she is reconciled from her iniquity, she will be seen in everlasting righteousness, the visions and prophecies of the O.T. relating to her will be sealed and complete, the Holy of Holies will be anointed in the 1000 year Kingdom.
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That is utterly ridiculous. I will present the truth from Scripture in the following post!

revmwc said: ↑

Over and over N.T. scripture verifies the fact that God will restore Israel, God will fulfill His promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in regards to the land.
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You might present some of those

Over and over N.T. scripture
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That verifies the fact that God will restore Israel. The Apostle Paul shows in Galatians 3 that all the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ!

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

That is utter nonsense, the mythology of pre-trib-dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby and the Jesuit priest.

The woman is the Church. That is clear if you post the introductory verses of Revelation 12. GOD cast off all but the elect of Israel some 2000 years ago. The status of national Israel before God is no better than any other ethnic group of unbelievers.

That is utterly ridiculous. I will present the truth from Scripture in the following post!

You might present some of those That verifies the fact that God will restore Israel. The Apostle Paul shows in Galatians 3 that all the promises to Abraham are fulfilled in and through Jesus Christ!
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One question on this if the woman is the church then who is her child?

DHK · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

So while the anti-Christ reigns those six conditions will be fulfilled. That is the same blasphemous nonsense DHK spews.

The New Covenant was established with the Church. If you don't believe that you are denying the Word of GOD!
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No one here is denying the Word of God.
Daniel 9:24 is not speaking of the New Covenant. It is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ when Christ will fulfill his promises with the Jewish nation.

You cannot avoid the context (but you do) of verse 24.
70 weeks are determined upon thy people, that is Daniel's people.
That is the nation of Israel.
How do you jump from the nation of Israel to the Gentiles in general?

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

{The following is repeated from post #116 of The Messianic Kingdom. None of this Scripture was refuted, or even addressed, in that thread!}

DHK insists that with the death of Jesus Christ none of the following happened:

Originally Posted by DHK {post#70}
These events have yet to occur:
What are the events mentioned:
--to finish the transgression.
--to make an end of sins
--to make reconciliation for iniquity.
--to bring in everlasting righteousness.
--to seal up the vision and prophecy.
--to anoint a most holy place. (vs. 24)

All these events have to do with the Jewish people.
All these events will take place within that 70th week.
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Yet unbelievably DHK says that they will all take place during the 70th week when the Anti-Christ is reigning. That folks is what you get from the false doctrine of dispensationalism.

I disagree strongly! If Jesus Christ did not fulfill the promises of Daniel 24 we are all still lost and in our sins.

In Daniel 24 we read:
Daniel 9:24. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

There are six promises in this Scripture. The first three of these promises indicate things to be removed; the last three indicate things to be attained. Note that all six promises are to be accomplished during the seventy weeks. It is instructive to list these promises and then determine which have been fulfilled.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
6. to anoint the most Holy.

There are several verses in the New testament that show that these promises were fulfilled through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

1. to finish the transgression

John 11:46-50, 53

46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Acts 2:22-24
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The Jews "finished" their transgression when they Crucified Christ. That was their crowning offense. The Enormity of the crime of condemning Christ to death on the cross cannot be surpassed, and therefore it "finished" their Transgression.

2. to make an end of sins

Hebrews 10:12-14, KJV
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Galatians 1:4, KJV
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.

Titus 2:14, KJV
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:17, KJV
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.

Now one could argue that everlasting righteousness was not accomplished during or after the First Advent of Jesus Christ, even among those who become His disciples. Neither can one argue that such righteousness exists during the “so-called” earthly millennial reign since even proponents of that earthly millennial reign contend that sin is merely restrained by the iron hand of Jesus Christ to spring forth into full bloom again when Satan is released from his chains. [Also one thousand years is not everlasting.] What, therefore is meant by ‘everlasting righteousness’? The most logical explanation is that this righteousness is the imputed righteousness bestowed on the believer because of his faith in Jesus Christ. This imputed righteousness is an everlasting righteousness.

Romans 3:22, KJV
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:1, KJV
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.

Matthew Henry, B. H. Carroll, E. J. Young, and H. C. Leupold are in general agreement that this refers to a fulfillment and completion of Old Testament prophecy. By the completion of His mission Jesus Christ confirmed the truth of Old Testament prophecy. Paul in his letter to the Hebrews tells us that in Jesus Christ we have the fullest revelation of God:

Hebrews 1:1-4, KJV
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

With the completion of the New Testament, the final revelation of Jesus Christ as shown to the Apostle John, vision and prophecy are brought to an end, that is, sealed.

6. anoint the most Holy.

O. T. Allis in Prophecy and the Church indicates this may mean the entrance of Jesus Christ into Heaven itself when by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [Hebrews 9:12] for all His elect. Henry, Leupold, and Young believe that this refers to the anointing of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. B. H. Carroll believes that “the most Holy” refers to the Church that Jesus Christ Himself established. The Church as used in this context refers to the Church universal, the entire body of ‘true believers’ or Saints. Carroll’s interpretation seems to be preferable, however, the Church can only be referred to as ‘most Holy’ only because She is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:10, 14, KJV
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We read further about the Church:

2 Corinthians 11:2, KJV
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 2:19-22, KJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Hebrews 12:18-24, KJV
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
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DHK · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

{The following is repeated from post #116 of The Messianic Kingdom. None of this Scripture was refuted, or even addressed, in that thread!}
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I just finished refuting that just a few posts ago, here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2232146&postcount=33

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

{The following is repeated from post #116 of The Messianic Kingdom. None of this Scripture was refuted, or even addressed, in that thread!}
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again you missed it,my post 143,

What scripture shows Israel as a nation receiving all of this. Israel as Abraham's seed through Isaac and Jacob and the 12 tribes. That is what was promised to Daniel, not that these would fall to the church. The church received the same benefits that Adam and Eve received all the way through Salvation by Grace through faith. But the specific promises given to Abraham fall to Daniel's people, we are never called Daniel's people. We receive the inheritance of eternal life from Jesus, we will be in the Earthly Kingdom with Christ as the Bride. We will be spared the Time of Trial coming upon the earth all promised by Jesus to us His Bride the Church. Israel as nation never had the promise of not going through the time of Trial they had just the opposite, so if you see that the church receives all that Israel would have then you see us going through the Tribulation, when the ungodly prince, the anti-christ reigns upon the earth as seen in Daniel 9:24 and accomplished in Revelation.

Sorry scripture doesn't bare that out.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

So you see the Gentiles as Daniel's People. You see that The Transgression of the Holy city Jerusalem is finished, in what way?

You see and end of sin for the city of Jerusalem, when did it happen?

You see the Holy city Jerusalem is now reconciled with god for iniquity, when did it occur?

When has Jerusalem received everlasting righteousness?

When was the Holy of Holies anointed?

What New Testament verse did you use for that occurring to the Holy City Jerusalem? When did all this occur?

revmwc quote:

1. to finish the transgression

John 11:46-50, 53

Nothing in this says that Jesus died or would die for the Transgression of the Nation. It says that the city wouldn't perish but it did.

Christ death on the cross paid for the sins of all mankind that is true, all from Adam to present day are saved by the Grace of God through faith. But many of the Jewish people rejected Him, the Promise in Daniel 9;24 says that the Messiah would bring an end of transgression to Daniel's people and to the Holy City, where in John 11 does it say that Jesus accomplished that?

2. to make an end of sins

Hebrews 10:12-14, Galtians 1:4,
All this talks about the end of the sacrifice for sin, not an end to sin, and it specifies all this is for the church believer, nothing about an end of sin for Daniel's people or for the Holy City.
He became the Propitiation for the sins of all mankind that is true, by Grace through faith everyone can be saved if they call upon His name. But the promise was given to Daniel that the end of sin for his People and the Holy city would take place.

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.

Titus 2:14, Hebrews 2:17,

Again you speak of Him redeeming those of the church all who receive Him, yet agains let me reiterate Daniel 9:24 says it will be Daniel's people and the Holy City which are reconciled to God. Nothing in these verses says anything about the Israelites as a nation or the city being reconciled for their iniquity.

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Romans 3:22, Romans 5:1, 2 Corinthians 5:21,

Everlasting Righteous has not come for Daniel's people, it has come for those of us in the church age. his righteousness is imputed into every believer's account. But everlasting righteousness has not come to Jerusalem, nor to Daniel's people.

[Also one thousand years is not everlasting.]

1000 years ends time as we know it for man, then the New Heaven and New Earth, guess who is reigning on that New Earth in the New Holy City, The God Head including Jesus. The same one who will reign on the Throne of David in Jerusalem as promised.

5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.

Hebrews 1:1-4,
you just showed us with this passage dispensations, I thought you didn't believe in dispensations. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son"

God talked to Israel by the Prophet's and God deals with the Church through
His Son, The prophet's prophesied by the Law and the transgression that came because the Law showed them. Christ came and shows Grace through His effacacious work on the cross, so the Dispensation of Law passed for a better Dispensation of Grace. But when did prophecy cease? According to almost every noted Biblical scholar it occurred when Revelation was completed in A.D. 95.

But again prophecy for Israel is still yet to be fulfilled, why because God promised that it would be accomplished, to deny that it will is to make God a liar.
6. anoint the most Holy.
2 Corinthians 11:2, here the church is shown as the Bride of Christ, in Which we see return with Christ in Revelation 19, thus we see the snatching away of the Bride taking place before the second advent.

Ephesians 2:19-22, Beautiful scene of the Church fitted toghether as the Bride, and as the bride she becomes fellow citizens with Israel and all the saints of the O.T. who were not of Israel. God's progressive dealing with people.

1 Peter 2:9, Again everything to do with the Church and our being citizens of heaven but nothing to do with Daniel's people and the Holy city.

Hebrews 12:18-24, Again this deals with the church and her New Home, it speaks of the dispensation of the Law and how we are much better in the dispensation of Grace, but again Verse 24 speaks of the Holy of Holies being anointed and that being in the Temple at Jerusalem with Daniel's people.
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You continue to overlook or ignore those things right in front of you.
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OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

One question on this if the woman is the church then who is her child?
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You recall I said you needed to present the initial verses of Revelation 12.

Initially the woman represents "spiritual Israel" which gives birth to the Savior, Jesus Christ. That is obvious to anyone who can read.

After Jesus Christ establishes the Church in New Testament form, and is slaughtered by the Jews and Rome, the woman then represents The Church.

Revelation 12:1ff clearly shows that the futurist interpretation of the Book of Revelation is false since in this chapter we see the birth of Jesus Christ.

BrotherJoseph · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

I don't see anything he proved to be correct, because all those things must have occurred for Israel so has Israel as a Nation repented?
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Romans 9:6-8 is pretty clear that Israel is the elect who believe upon Christ (both Jew and Gentile), i.e. the church. What do you think Romans 9:6-8 is teaching? Please respond to the portions of the verses I have highlighted with your interpretation.

"6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)

God bless,

Brother Joe

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

1. to finish the transgression

John 11:46-50, 53

Nothing in this says that Jesus died or would die for the Transgression of the Nation. It says that the city wouldn't perish but it did.
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Jesus Christ did not die FOR the transgression of the Jews. He died BECAUSE of the transgression of the Jews. I showed Scripture that proved that. Refute the Scripture if you can.

revmwc said: ↑

Christ death on the cross paid for the sins of all mankind that is true, all from Adam to present day are saved by the Grace of God through faith. But many of the Jewish people rejected Him, the Promise in Daniel 9;24 says that the Messiah would bring an end of transgression to Daniel's people and to the Holy City, where in John 11 does it say that Jesus accomplished that?
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The death of Jesus Christ at the hands of the Jews and Rome FINISHED the transgression of the Jews. GOD cast off the jews as His people as the following Scripture clearly shows: Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. That judgment of the Jews {Israel} by GOD has never been revoked in Scripture. GOD put the finishing touches to that judgment when He destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

How do you get that the Messiah would

bring an end of transgression to Daniel's people and to the Holy City?
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Nothing is said about an end of transgression to the Holy City.

OldRegular said: ↑

John 11:46-50, 53
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

Acts 2:22-24
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The Jews "finished" their transgression when they Crucified Christ. That was their crowning offense. The Enormity of the crime of condemning Christ to death on the cross cannot be surpassed, and therefore it "finished" their Transgression.
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revmwc said: ↑

2. to make an end of sins

Hebrews 10:12-14, Galtians 1:4,
All this talks about the end of the sacrifice for sin, not an end to sin, and it specifies all this is for the church believer, nothing about an end of sin for Daniel's people or for the Holy City.
He became the Propitiation for the sins of all mankind that is true, by Grace through faith everyone can be saved if they call upon His name. But the promise was given to Daniel that the end of sin for his People and the Holy city would take place.
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It does not say the Messiah would make an end to the sacrifice for sin. It says "to make an end of sins". The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ at the hands of the Jews and hated Rome brought an end to the penalty of sin for the "true believers".

OldRegular said: ↑

Hebrews 10:12-14, KJV
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Galatians 1:4, KJV
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
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revmwc said: ↑

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.

Titus 2:14, Hebrews 2:17,

Again you speak of Him redeeming those of the church all who receive Him, yet agains let me reiterate Daniel 9:24 says it will be Daniel's people and the Holy City which are reconciled to God. Nothing in these verses says anything about the Israelites as a nation or the city being reconciled for their iniquity.
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Who are Daniel's people? Furthermore, the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ fulfilled the conditions of Daniel 9:24. That is the fact of history and Scripture so the "mantra" Daniels people as referring to Israel does not hold water. So Huummm all you want. The New Testament frequently enlarges on or reapplies Old Testament prophecy as shown in Acts 2:15ff and Acts 15L15ff.

OldRegular said: ↑

Titus 2:14, KJV
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:17, KJV
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
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revmwc said: ↑

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.

Romans 3:22, Romans 5:1, 2 Corinthians 5:21,

Everlasting Righteous has not come for Daniel's people, it has come for those of us in the church age. his righteousness is imputed into every believer's account. But everlasting righteousness has not come to Jerusalem, nor to Daniel's people.

[Also one thousand years is not everlasting.]

1000 years ends time as we know it for man, then the New Heaven and New Earth, guess who is reigning on that New Earth in the New Holy City, The God Head including Jesus. The same one who will reign on the Throne of David in Jerusalem as promised.
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There will be no Messianic Kingdom where the abomination GOD destroyed in 70AD will be re-established.

Everlasting righteousness has come for those for whom Jesus Christ died. There will be a New heavens and New Earth where GOD will dwell with the redeemed of all time, the Church. Scripture says nothing about a New Holy City rather the New Jerusalem, the bride of jesus Christ, the redeemed of all time, The Church.

OldRegular said: ↑

Now one could argue that everlasting righteousness was not accomplished during or after the First Advent of Jesus Christ, even among those who become His disciples. Neither can one argue that such righteousness exists during the “so-called” earthly millennial reign since even proponents of that earthly millennial reign contend that sin is merely restrained by the iron hand of Jesus Christ to spring forth into full bloom again when Satan is released from his chains. [Also one thousand years is not everlasting.] What, therefore is meant by ‘everlasting righteousness’? The most logical explanation is that this righteousness is the imputed righteousness bestowed on the believer because of his faith in Jesus Christ. This imputed righteousness is an everlasting righteousness.

Romans 3:22, KJV
22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 5:1, KJV
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV
21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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Continued following post!

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

Continued from previous post!

revmwc said: ↑

5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.

Hebrews 1:1-4,
you just showed us with this passage dispensations, I thought you didn't believe in dispensations. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son"
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That is utter nonsense and silly besides. If it were true one could identify a new dispensation each and every time GOD spoke to a prophet!

revmwc said: ↑

God talked to Israel by the Prophet's and God deals with the Church through
His Son, The prophet's prophesied by the Law and the transgression that came because the Law showed them. Christ came and shows Grace through His effacacious work on the cross, so the Dispensation of Law passed for a better Dispensation of Grace. But when did prophecy cease? According to almost every noted Biblical scholar it occurred when Revelation was completed in A.D. 95.
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GOD has always dealt with people through HIS Grace. The prophecy ceased with the close of the New Testament but the date when Revelation was written is irrelevant.

revmwc said: ↑

But again prophecy for Israel is still yet to be fulfilled, why because God promised that it would be accomplished, to deny that it will is to make God a liar.
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The continued use of GOD in connection with a liar is disgusting. Why is it you dispensationalists want to use that name. I don't recall anyone other than you pre-tribbers talking like that.

OldRegular said: ↑

Matthew Henry, B. H. Carroll, E. J. Young, and H. C. Leupold are in general agreement that this refers to a fulfillment and completion of Old Testament prophecy. By the completion of His mission Jesus Christ confirmed the truth of Old Testament prophecy. Paul in his letter to the Hebrews tells us that in Jesus Christ we have the fullest revelation of God:

Hebrews 1:1-4, KJV
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

With the completion of the New Testament, the final revelation of Jesus Christ as shown to the Apostle John, vision and prophecy are brought to an end, that is, sealed.
Click to expand...

revmwc said: ↑

6. anoint the most Holy.

2 Corinthians 11:2, here the church is shown as the Bride of Christ, in Which we see return with Christ in Revelation 19, thus we see the snatching away of the Bride taking place before the second advent.
Click to expand...

The "snatching away of the Church is mythology invented by John Nelson Darby and a Jesuit priest as I have shown repeatedly.

revmwc said: ↑

Ephesians 2:19-22, Beautiful scene of the Church fitted toghether as the Bride, and as the bride she becomes fellow citizens with Israel and all the saints of the O.T. who were not of Israel. God's progressive dealing with people.
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Ephesians 2:11-22 shows conclusively that GOD has only one people. Darby, Scofield, Chafer, Walvoord, and Ryrie are simply wrong and teach/taught a false doctrine.

revmwc said: ↑

1 Peter 2:9, Again everything to do with the Church and our being citizens of heaven but nothing to do with Daniel's people and the Holy city.
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You need to reassess your "mantra: about Daniel's people! Huuummmnn

revmwc said: ↑

Hebrews 12:18-24, Again this deals with the church and her New Home, it speaks of the dispensation of the Law and how we are much better in the dispensation of Grace, but again Verse 24 speaks of the Holy of Holies being anointed and that being in the Temple at Jerusalem with Daniel's people.
Click to expand...

Hebrews 12:18-24 speaks nothing about the dispensation of the Law! It speaks of the giving of the Law. That this Scripture speaks of the Temple in Jerusalem is more mythology. You are reading your false doctrine into Scripture. Revelation 22:18, 19 does not speak well of those who would twist Scripture.

OldRegular said: ↑

O. T. Allis in Prophecy and the Church indicates this may mean the entrance of Jesus Christ into Heaven itself when by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [Hebrews 9:12] for all His elect. Henry, Leupold, and Young believe that this refers to the anointing of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. B. H. Carroll believes that “the most Holy” refers to the Church that Jesus Christ Himself established. The Church as used in this context refers to the Church universal, the entire body of ‘true believers’ or Saints. Carroll’s interpretation seems to be preferable, however, the Church can only be referred to as ‘most Holy’ only because She is sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:10, 14, KJV
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We read further about the Church:

2 Corinthians 11:2, KJV
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Ephesians 2:19-22, KJV
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Peter 2:9, KJV
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Hebrews 12:18-24, KJV
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Click to expand...

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

BrotherJoseph said: ↑

Romans 9:6-8 is pretty clear that Israel is the elect who believe upon Christ (both Jew and Gentile), i.e. the church. What do you think Romans 9:6-8 is teaching? Please respond to the portions of the verses I have highlighted with your interpretation.

"6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)

God bless,

Brother Joe
Click to expand...

Well said Brother Joe.

{I worked one summer for North American Aviation in the summer of 1956 in Columbus. My wife and I honeymooned there in a basement apartment. I do not recall the street but may be able to find it! Had a chance to go to Ohio State to work on my PhD in engineering but decided against it! My understanding is that the city now encloses the Ohio State campus!}

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

Jesus Christ did not die FOR the transgression of the Jews. He died BECAUSE of the transgression of the Jews. I showed Scripture that proved that. Refute the Scripture if you can.

The death of Jesus Christ at the hands of the Jews and Rome FINISHED the transgression of the Jews. GOD cast off the jews as His people as the following Scripture clearly shows: Matthew 21:43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. That judgment of the Jews {Israel} by GOD has never been revoked in Scripture. GOD put the finishing touches to that judgment when He destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD.

How do you get that the Messiah would Nothing is said about an end of transgression to the Holy City.

It does not say the Messiah would make an end to the sacrifice for sin. It says "to make an end of sins". The sacrificial death of Jesus Christ at the hands of the Jews and hated Rome brought an end to the penalty of sin for the "true believers".

Who are Daniel's people? Furthermore, the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ fulfilled the conditions of Daniel 9:24. That is the fact of history and Scripture so the "mantra" Daniels people as referring to Israel does not hold water. So Huummm all you want. The New Testament frequently enlarges on or reapplies Old Testament prophecy as shown in Acts 2:15ff and Acts 15L15ff.

There will be no Messianic Kingdom where the abomination GOD destroyed in 70AD will be re-established.

Everlasting righteousness has come for those for whom Jesus Christ died. There will be a New heavens and New Earth where GOD will dwell with the redeemed of all time, the Church. Scripture says nothing about a New Holy City rather the New Jerusalem, the bride of Jesus Christ, the redeemed of all time, The Church.

Continued following post!
Click to expand...

Romans 3:24-26

KJV
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Click to expand...

Christ died because God planned for Christ to become the propitiation for sin all sin that is the Transgressions of ALL. Had the Jews accepted Him, which God foreknew they wouldn't, but had they, He would still have been cutoff.

KJV Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Click to expand...

Upon the Transgression of EVE and the Sin of Adam God promised a savior the seed of woman would come and crush satan's head, from eternity past God planned for Christ death on the cross.

He did not die

(OR) BECAUSE of the transgression of the Jews
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He died because of the Transgressions of all mankind.

kjv
1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin
Click to expand...

.

His death paid for every sin past present and future, he became the propitiation for all of mankind, that is not the question raised.

kjv
1 John 2:1-2, 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Click to expand...

He died for the Transgressions of all. Not every Jew rejected Him, just the leaders of the nation. Not all of them had a hand in it, Nicodemus and Joseph of Aramathia accepted Him. The 11 and many others. But because of the leaders rejection God set Israel aside for a little time.

Romans 11:1-8, makes it very clear,

kjv
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day
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.

God still has a remnant and He will have in the Tribulation 144,000 Jews from 12 Tribes.

Jesus died for the sins of every person who has ever lived. He died for the Transgressions of ALL because HE became the Propitiaiton for ALL mankind So He didn't just died

(OR)BECAUSE of the transgression of the Jews
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, it was because of the Transgression of all.

KJV Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

BrotherJoseph said: ↑

Romans 9:6-8 is pretty clear that Israel is the elect who believe upon Christ (both Jew and Gentile), i.e. the church. What do you think Romans 9:6-8 is teaching? Please respond to the portions of the verses I have highlighted with your interpretation.

"6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)

God bless,

Brother Joe
Click to expand...

Romans 9: from interlinear:

TR interlinear Romans 9:
6 Not which which yet that has out fallen the saying of the God Not for all the ones out of Israel these Israel.
7 Not yet that they are seed of Abraham all offsprings but in Isaac shall be being called to you seed
8 This is not the offsprings of the flesh these offsprings of the God but the offsprings of the promise He is accounting into seed
Click to expand...

They are spiritual seed and inherit the Spiritual that is Spiritual life and blessings. They do not replace the physical seed and the Promises for that physical seed of inheriting the Land and a Physical Messianic Kingdom, those are reserved for the physical seed. Paul made it clear here in the interlinear.

Iconoclast · Jun 9, 2015

DHK

The contrast is between two peoples coming to two places:
One to Mount Sinia; the other to Mount Zion (the heavenly Jerusalem).
Click to expand...

This is not consistent with the biblical interpretation of the events.The writer says this in chapter 9;

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

It is not two peoples it is two time periods
1] pre cross type

2] post cross fulfillment

That which was physical and earthly was the shadow of the spiritual reality

At the former the earth shakes and the trumpet is blown.
At the latter the earth and heaven will shake and trumpet will be blown.
Click to expand...

At Mt Sinai the people could not approach without a mediator...we have direct access In Christ now.....by our Union with the ascended Lord.

There is no mention of a trumpet being blown here for the NT believers.

At the former God came down in partial glory to man (Moses)
At the latter Christ will come in great glory to all.
Click to expand...

Moses was the mediator as a type.....Christ is the mediator for those in Covenant with Him.

The contrast IMO, is very evident of two comings, one of which is still future.
We haven't reached heaven yet
Click to expand...

.

The type has given place to the reality......The Kingdom reign of Heaven is a present reality

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

Romans 9: from interlinear:

They are spiritual seed and inherit the Spiritual that is Spiritual life and blessings. They do not replace the physical seed and the Promises for that physical seed of inheriting the Land and a Physical Messianic Kingdom, those are reserved for the physical seed. Paul made it clear here in the interlinear.
Click to expand...

There is a verse of Scripture that you Rapture Ready people completely ignore.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, not a carnal earthly kingdom. The carnal Jews of the first century were expecting the Messiah to throw off the yoke of Rome and establish an earthly carnal kingdom. HE did not then and HE will not in the future regardless of how much you Rapture Ready people preach it. That is a false doctrine. The idea that GOD would re-establish a kingdom where the bloody sacrifices were offered again is a blasphemous doctrine and limits the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Chafer was preaching an abominable doctrine when he said GOD has an earthly people, the Jews!

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

There is a verse of Scripture that you Rapture Ready people completely ignore.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

The Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, not a carnal earthly kingdom. The carnal Jews of the first century were expecting the Messiah to throw off the yoke of Rome and establish an earthly carnal kingdom. HE did not then and HE will not in the future regardless of how much you Rapture Ready people preach it. That is a false doctrine. The idea that GOD would re-establish a kingdom where the bloody sacrifices were offered again is a blasphemous doctrine and limits the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Chafer was preaching an abominable doctrine when he said GOD has an earthly people, the Jews!
Click to expand...

John 18:36 TR interlinear:
Answered the Jesus the Kingdom the my not is out of the system this if out of the system this was the Kingdom the my the subservients ever the to me contended that no I may be being beside given to the Judaans now yet the Kingdom the my not is hence
Click to expand...

Jesus Kingdom at that time was not of that world system, if it were of that world system then His servants would have contended with the authorities, but His Kingdom's time was not ready (hence). Very simple from the interlinear.

OldRegular · Jun 9, 2015

revmwc said: ↑

Jesus Kingdom at that time was not of that world system, if it were of that world system then His servants would have contended with the authorities, but His Kingdom's time was not ready (hence). Very simple from the interlinear.
Click to expand...

That would be comical if it were not so ridiculous:

John 18:36 TR interlinear:
Answered the Jesus the Kingdom the my not is out of the system this if out of the system this was the Kingdom the my the subservients ever the to me contended that no I may be being beside given to the Judaans now yet the Kingdom the my not is hence
Click to expand...

Very simple from the interlinear
Click to expand...

:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

revmwc · Jun 9, 2015

OldRegular said: ↑

That would be comical if it were not so ridiculous:

:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:
Click to expand...

Interlinear straight from Greek to English, Lets look again and see why you feel Jesus words are comical,

John 18:36 TR interlinear:
Answered the Jesus the Kingdom the my not is out of the system this if out of the system this was the Kingdom the my the subservients ever the to me contended that no I may be being beside given to the Judaans now yet the Kingdom the my not is hence
Click to expand...

Answered the Jesus the Kingdom the my not is out of the system,
Click to expand...

Here we see Jesus said His Kingdom was not if this world system and it isn't at this time and wasn't at that point in time.

if out of the system this was the Kingdom
Click to expand...

If it was of this world system He says

my the subservients ever the to me contended
Click to expand...

His servants would contend with the ones running the system.

Now notice this part,

that no I may be being beside given to the Judaans now yet the Kingdom
Click to expand...

If it was of this system He would be giving the Judaans the Kingdom now, understand that would be the Messianic Kingdom but

the my not is hence
Click to expand...

Christ Kingdom was not hence that is it was not time for it to come, but it will be coming at a future time and it will be given to the Judaans (Jews). Again you find Jesus words comical from the interlinear but straight from Greek to English can be hard to understand for some.

DHK · Jun 9, 2015

Iconoclast said: ↑

DHK

This is not consistent with the biblical interpretation of the events.The writer says this in chapter 9;

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Click to expand...

But we are not talking about chapter 9, we are in chapter 12.
What I said:
The contrast is between two peoples coming to two places:
One to Mount Sinia; the other to Mount Zion (the heavenly Jerusalem).

These are the exact words used in chapter 12: "Sinai," Heavenly Jerusalem."
The context is specifically defined for us. Look again:

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
--Read the context here. This is Mount Sinai. I think you can agree with that.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

From Sinai to the Heavenly Jerusalem. That is the journey of the Jewish believer in history. The Israelite became a nation under God at Sinai, and that nation will be saved when Christ comes. This is the Book of Hebrews, written to Jewish believers. Much is applicable to us, but context must be kept in mind.

It is not two peoples it is two time periods
1] pre cross type

2] post cross fulfillment
Click to expand...

I agree it is two time periods, but those periods are far more specific than you are making them. From Sinai to the Second Coming. (Not simply pre and post cross).

That which was physical and earthly was the shadow of the spiritual reality
Click to expand...

They were Jewish believers. The contrast was between the OT system as Jews and the NT system as believers. Which was "better"?
"Christ is better than...", etc.
When the Jewish believer (as well as we) reach the heavenly Jerusalem (when Christ comes) that is far better than when Israel reached either Sinai or the Promised Land.

At Mt Sinai the people could not approach without a mediator...we have direct access In Christ now.....by our Union with the ascended Lord.
Click to expand...

Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
--At Mount Sinai they could not approach the Mount at all.
Moses first had to receive the Law. The nation had to come under Jehovah as a theocracy. It was incumbent upon Israel to accept Jehovah's terms that Jehovah be her king and she her subjects.
Thus Moses said: "I exceedingly fear and quake."

We also fear until we come to Christ. Christ will remain in heaven as our mediator. He is not presently acting as king, but as mediator. Some day he will exercise authority as king, but not now. He is our Great High Priest and intercedes for us day and night.

There is no mention of a trumpet being blown here for the NT believers.
Click to expand...

The mountain shook. A trumpet was blown.
So it will be at the second coming, when he comes at the last trump.

Zechariah 9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

The type has given place to the reality......The Kingdom reign of Heaven is a present reality
Click to expand...

The Kingdom has not yet come.
Even the disciples knew that. Christ did not deny a coming kingdom.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
--Christ said, "Not at this time." But he did not say it would not come.

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