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The American League’s Designated Hitter rule

Discussion in 'Sports Forum' started by Alcott, Jul 15, 2004.

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  1. I am a fan of an American League team

    27.3%
  2. I prefer games with more scoring, as opposed to low-scoring pitching duals

    4.5%
  3. I hate to see a pitcher taken out just because he can’t hit

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Other sports have special rules by player position (like football has rules about hitting the QB tha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. A good pitcher having to bat or run the bases is a target for injury by the opposing team

    4.5%
  6. I like the fact that a player can be a DH and still bat if he is incapable of playing the field

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. There is actually more strategy in a game <i>with</i> the DH rule than in a game without it

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. I rather like the 2 major leagues having this one major rule difference in their play

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. Other reason

    4.5%
  10. None of these—I am indifferent to the DH rule

    59.1%
  11. None of these—I <i>oppose</i> the DH rule

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. WallyGator

    WallyGator New Member

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    See where Edgar Martinez is retiring after end of season. Already promoting him for Hall of Fame, but I don't think he has the numbers. Should he get in just because he is the best DH ?
    WallyGator
     
  2. go2church

    go2church Active Member
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    Not everyone can be the pitcher, there has to be someone at first in order to play the game! Even if I agree that the pitcher is the most important defensive player, that still doesn't do away with the fact that in the AL they are only playing in half the game, the defensive side. Your argument seems silly at best.

    If the DH is legal then there has be a place for the best at the job. Even if I don't like the DH rule, it is a position that someone plays and last I checked the Hall is for those that are the best at their position. In that case Edgar was the best at being a DH and should be in the Hall
     
  3. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    "Even if I agree that the pitcher is the most important defensive player, that still doesn't do away with the fact that in the AL they are only playing in half the game, the defensive side."

    Let's really examine that. The game, or an inning, never starts without a pitch being thrown. From then on, a new "play" means a new deliberate action by the pitcher; usually a pitch, but also a throw to a base, or something negative (balk; drop ball) a pitcher does. So a pitcher is involved in every defensive play. The catcher would be second in defensive involvement, though on many plays he does nothing but 'back up', and if there are no base runners it is not critical that he even catch an unhit pitch. The first baseman is next, being in position for the putout on most ground balls. Then the other infielders, overlapped with the outfielders.

    As for the offensive side, a player participates as batter 1/9 of the time, and if he gets on base, there is a maximum of 5 more batters through which he can remain on base. So he can be directly involved inoffensive play for up to 2/3 of the time his team is at bat, but the average is approximately 1/7 (14%), depending on the offensive output of his team.

    So, putting this all together, a fielder may have no plays in a game, though that is a rarity, and on offense he will be involved in play about 1/7 of the time. If a fielder handles 6 plays a game (I don't know the average), that is 2/9 of all outs plus the base hits and error; plus he contributes about 1/7 of the offensive, which adds up to 25/63, or roughly 40%. If the 1st baseman handles 10 plays (conservative), that adds up to almost 60%. If the catcher is involved in 80% of the defensive play, that adds to about 94%. But the pitcher is involved in 100% of defensive play-- depending on perspective, even more than 100% of one position with backing up the plate and covering first base at times. So even if he does not bat, he is likely involved overall more than any players except the catcher and 1st baseman, with his job taking a much greater toll physically and also requiring more concentration. So however you look at it, a pitcher contributes at least in 50% of the game, while some fielders much less.

    So, a pitcher playing in only half the game? Maybe true in a sense. But fielders can easily participate in less than that, and there is no question a pitcher's job takes a lot more out of him.
     
  4. Bible Believing Bill

    Bible Believing Bill <img src =/bbb.jpg>

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    Then shouldn't the AL Pitchers have a better ERA then NL pitchers since they don't have the added burden of batting. As of today Oakland has a 4.0 ERA which is only good enough to rank 7th in the Majors.

    Bill
     
  5. WallyGator

    WallyGator New Member

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    Was watching the Little League Regional SW final last night. Was surprised to see that they now have a designated runner rule. Can you possibly conceive that the AL might install something like this? I think it's a hoot!
     
  6. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Then shouldn't the AL Pitchers have a better ERA then NL pitchers since they don't have the added burden of batting.

    No, because there is not a significant portion of the batters they face that are pitchers, who hit .133 on the average. And batting does not take that much out of a pitcher; pitching does. I have, though, seen some NL games where a pitcher got on base, and the team in the field slowed play with the apparent motive of keeping the pitcher's arm tight for longer. They threw to first base where the pitcher was when he didn't get more than 2 steps as a "lead," and the pitcher in field had silly little 'conferences' with infielders once at a time, ... When a NL pitcher does get a hit or walk, there is no telling how often it may be because the opposing team wants him to, for such reasons.

    Was surprised to see that they now have a designated runner rule.

    I saw that rule invoked in a recent Little League playoff game on television, and I knew nothing about such a rule. And just last week, I saw a Mickey Mantle League (15-17 year olds) tournament game where it was used. The designated runner was put in for the pitcher who had a shutout going and was striking out 2/3 of batters he faced. When he came back out to pitch the next inning, the opposing manager threw a tantrum on the field, was ejected, and before he left he picked up 2nd base and threw it at the umpires in a little huddle near the mound. I know some amateur leagues do have a rule that any player came come out and return once if he returns to his same spot in the batting order. But this diplay shows the rules are not always known or fairly enforced (IMO).
     
  7. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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  8. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    "Also I do not believe that expansion necessarily diluted the playing talent."

    It certainly diluted the pitching talent, as can bae shown by an increase in runs scored per team in the years of expansion....

    The American League:
    1961-- 4.53 runs per game; up from 4.39.
    1969-- 4.09 runs per game; up from 3.41.
    1977-- 4.53 runs per game; up from 4.01.
    1998-- 5.01 runs per game; up from 4.93.

    The National League;
    1962-- 4.48 runs per game; down from 4.52.
    1969-- 4.05 runs per game; up from 3.43.
    1993-- 4.49 runs per game; up from 3.88.
    1998-- 4.60 runs per game; same as previous year.

    So the average increae of runs per team in expansion years is 0.33 runs per team-- +.36 for the AL and +.30 for the NL.

    Conclusion: Expansion does increase run production on a per game basis. Note also that expansion years are 'friendly' to offensive records... Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth's homerun record in an expansion year (1961), Maury Wills broke Ty Cobb's stolen base record in an expansion year (1962), and Mark McGwire set a new homerun record in an expansion year (1998).
     
  9. WallyGator

    WallyGator New Member

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    I've always thought that expansion also leads to more player injuries. Less-skilled, less conditioned, more specialty players. Notice that Phil Garner has the Astro pitching starters doing hour extra bunting practice.
     
  10. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    Have you taken into account that different ball parks have been used since 1961? Park factors play a large role in scoring.
     
  11. ChurchBoy

    ChurchBoy New Member

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    In any industry where there are a finite number of jobs there is always more available "talent" than job openings. There are many baseball players capable of playing in the majors leagues that for some reason or another are not. There are probably 100 players in the world right now that are better than the 100 worst players in the majors. There's probably 20 players in the Japanese leagues alone that can replace 20 of those 100 worst players. Ichiro played in Japan for seven years. Those are seven years he could have played in the majors. I'm sure Cuba has several players that can play in the major righ now. And there are many quality players in triple-A that can play in the majors. The problem is that there is an inefficiency in how the best talent reaches the majors.
     
  12. WallyGator

    WallyGator New Member

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    Sh! what about steroids (hush)! :eek:
     
  13. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    There is some truth to that, but it's really the recent expansions ('93, '98) that have made it a point to be sure their new parks are "hitter's parks." The Astrodome-- without which the concept thereof Houston would not have been awarded a franchise-- was definitely no hitter's park, and indeed, a staff of young fireballers set a major league strikeout record in 1969 there. The Mets built Shea, and that is not considered a hitter's park either. I'm not really sure about San Diego's Jack Murphy Stadium or Montreal's Jarry Park, but Royal Stadium in KC is definitely a "pitcher's park."

    I think it was starting with the 80's that new stadiums-- for expansion teams or for established ones-- were believed to increase crowds and ticket and concession sales if they were conducive to more offense. Not only that, but older stadiums still in use also made changes to make them more hitter friendly; like Yankee Stadium moved it's long power alleys in consideraly.

    But back to question about pitching talent... Since the 60's expansion did not feature ballparks that were conducive to more power hitting, and yet power hitting increased, we can still conclude that expansion leads to more offense, which clearly results from poorer pitching quality.
     
  14. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    "The D.H. adds 10 points to your team batting average and a half run to your team E.R.A."

    This old idea still has merit in that it was not too far off-base for the 2004 season. The AL league batting average was .271 and the NL average was .262. The AL league E.R.A. was 4.63, while the NL league E.R.A. was 4.05.

    One surprise in comparing the 2 leagues was that, despite the higher batting average and E.R.A. in the AL, NL teams averaged 8.98 hits per game, while AL teams averaged 8.72. This indicates the DH makes more than a difference in hits, but also in what happens to base runners, like moving them with ground outs and/or pitching around or intentionally walking more hitters-- the NL walked an average of 3.36 batters per game, while the AL walked 3.32. The AL's run per hit ratio was .575, while the NL's was .516, which is a considerable difference in summing the average of 5.01 runs per game for an AL team and 4.64 for an NL team. So in choosing which hitters to pitch to, or around, and advancing runners, and thus overall in making hits count, the DH amounts to more than just facing 9 batters intead of 8 1/2.

    Another 'partial' surprise was the the AL strikes out more hitters per game than the NL-- 6.40 to the NL's 6.24. But this supposedly can be explained by the more "free swinging" tendencies around which AL offensive strategy is built. Although pitchers strike out a lot when they try to hit, the opposing team is probably willing enough to let them miss a breaking ball or else hit or bunt it into the dirt-- as well as having no fear of giving the #8 batter hittable balls. I used to think that when Nolan Ryan struck out 383 in the first year of the DH, he would probably have gotten more than 400 had he been in the NL, with just 17 more K's facing pitchers rather than DH's. Looking at the overall strategical points, that is no longer my opinion.
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Just found this:

    Lex clavatoris designati rescindenda est.
     
  16. Bible Believing Bill

    Bible Believing Bill <img src =/bbb.jpg>

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    Ok I'm confused, whats it mean?

    Bill
     
  17. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    "Get rid of the designated hitter rule" ;)
     
  18. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

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    Another comment on ballparks - it has quickly become known that pitchers don't like our new Citizen's Bank Park very much. However, I was there when Ken Griffey, Jr. was robbed of a homer when the wind actually picked up a ball and turned it around from going into the stands.

    And hey, there's no DH in Little League, is there?
     
  19. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    When I played baseball, I was an excellent hitter, average fielder and relief pitcher, and a SLOW runner.(When I didn't pitch, I played 1st base. I didn't have the arm endurance to be a starting pitcher.) In a close game, I expected to be pulled for a pinch-runner, especially if I was the lead runner.

    In one such high school game, I came to bat with the score tied, and Coach told me to try for a homer ONLY if the pitcher grooved one, ONLY on the 1st & 2nd strikes. My job was to get on base any way I could & then leave for a pinch runner. The pitcher did NOT groove one; he was on his "A" game-except for one pitch. With two strikes and one ball, I saw my chance when he threw a wild pitch at least 12 feet high. I DELIBERATELY SWUNG, striking out, but eligible to run since the catcher didn't catch it. When the catcher finally retrieved the ball, he tried to throw me out at first, but threw it over the first baseman's head into R-field, enabling me to reach 2nd. Coach didn't know whether to be happy or angry, so he told me, "That's a once-in-a lifetime thing, and since you have only one lifetime, don't ever do that again while playing for me! BTW, that WAS good thinking!" I said, "But Coach...You told me to reach base any way possible, & that was my best chance!"

    Coach did not reply.


    Had the DH rule existed at the time, I mighta played at least in the minors. I could always hit the ball, from Pee Wee League onward.

    I believe the DH rule is good for both fans and players. The AL fans got to see Hank Aaron bat, among others. I wonder how many more AL fans than normal came to see Hank play?

    Strategy? yes, it's an important part of baseball, but fans come to watch the players play, rather than to watch the manager think.
     
  20. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I really like the strategy of a rare opportunity like this. That was good thinking. I remember one time having seen that done in a major league game, on television. Probably if the batter had not made it safely to 1st, he would have been fined; as teams have their "fine book" about what it will cost a player for certain mental errors, like this and failing to back up a play when it's your responsibility, or missing a signal.

    I remember once on a softball team we had runners on 1st and 2nd, the one on 2nd having a bad knee and could not run fast at all. At the hit ball, both runners took off, the lead runner rounded 3rd, but thought he didn't have a chance, so he slowed up, while the next runner had almost caught up with him. In the meantime, the batter was trying for 2nd, so the lead runner stood near-- but off-- 3rd base, and his ploy worked. The outfielder threw to 2nd, then the lead runner took off for home and had it made before the team on defense even noticed he had stopped just past 3rd [​IMG] . They tried to claim a double out, but the umpire agreed the runners did not touch the base at the same time and that he did not have to go home immediately after the next runner touched it. He would have been caught in a rundown if they had seen what he was doing, but he just stood straight up; maybe he was right in front of the base coach, so he appeared to be the base coach [​IMG] .
     
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