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Featured The Amorality of Music

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Sapper Woody, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The word "like" does not occur nor is it implied in that verse. The form of "be" used is - is. And it is not a Clinton "is" definition.


    No the earth is not "renovated" the earth and heaven both "pass away" and are found no more. The presence of Satan shall never have touched nor shall evil have ever gazed upon the new heaven and new earth.

    There would be no need for this heaven and earth to pass away (not renovated) if they were not condemned and was amoral.


    Really? There is a difference?

    If the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, it is not sinful to purposely harm the body?

    If I make mockery of the elements and setting of the Lord's table, (for in your view they are amoral) I am not held accountable? Paul stated that the Corinthians' abuse of that ordinance was causal to some already "asleep."




    Do rocks tell a story? Does the soil appear inanimate, yet is it not what God used to form humankind? Do not all creatures return to the earth in decay?
    Doesn't moral, amoral, immoral present that which is good, neutral, bad? Did not God declare that which was created on each day of creation as good?

    If one is to break down the molecular structure of all creation, it is made up of but a few elements. What is the declaration that some mixtures of those elements are amoral and others are moral?

    Could it be that the "appearance" of what is called inanimate is assumed to be amoral, when in fact there is NO Scriptural or even scientific reason to do so other than human desire to construct some kind of structure denoting some kind of hierarchy?


    It takes more "silly" reasoning to construct some determining factors that may be in flux and up to self interpretation about what constitutes amoral objects then it does to simple recognize that God is moral and would not create anything amoral or immoral.

    Your grasping at an attribute of God attempting to show inconsistency, but in analysis it further validates my point.

    All the attributes of God are displayed in creation:
    The heavens declare even His glory.
    His Sovereignty is reflected man given dominion.
    His Holiness is given to the believer in sanctification.
    His omnipotence is shared according to Hebrews with the joint heirs.
    His omniscience is given in part but in the heavenly we shall know as He knows.
    His wisdom, faithfulness, ...

    Each attribute of God is shared in and through the creative work of God.

    There is no amoral and immoral at creation, only moral and that became fallen and condemned into immoral.

    Without the fall, weeds wouldn't infest my wife's flower garden. Never could get her to understand it would be better to grow what can be eaten and not just eye candy.




    The Scriptures teach that the body of the believer is the temple of God. The fajitas were bad because they rebelled against the temple of God, and that is rebellion against God.

    The Scriptures state we are not to take any great thought about what we eat or drink in the sense of it being holy or from the worship of idols. But that doesn't translate into being able to eat and drink whatever without regard to healthy preparation. The believer should be careful how the temple is treated in all areas.

    Humankind doesn't call food amoral - they call the food good or bad.

    If the unregenerate has such discernment, how is it the regenerate is lacking?
     
  2. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Just a Christian rapping the gospel story from Creation to the Cross to Eternity.

    But...this is a discussion about MUSIC, not lyrics... and what I am saying is simply that INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC can not be said to be inherently sinful...no matter how strong the beat, or how loud the guitar solo. Screaming in rage is a slightly different issue, since a human being's vocal expression is involved, and even if no words are said, screaming in rage would IN MOST CASES mean one was sinfully angry...unless that anger were pure righteous anger directed at satan, which it probalby rarely is. But the second he stops screaming, and there is an instrumental interlude, there is nothing to point to and say, "that's evil music."

    I'm sorry if I jumped to conclusions about your position...now it seems like your position is this...

    -Even Loud Rock music (like Trans-Siberian orchestra) is not sinful in and of itself...if it is not accompanied by sinful lyrics...but there is some music that is bad even without lyrics, but You can't say what that is, and it is between God and the believer...In other words, some types music could be right for one person to listen to, and wrong for another person? But you come back to a seemingly absolute statement that some music is bad...again, undefined.
     
  3. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This is a form of gnosticism that attributes morality to matter.

    It is dangerous.

    "Harmful" is by no means the same thing as "sinful". I should not have to tell you that. If you are going to think of yourself as knowledgeable enough to speak authoritatively on spiritual matters on a site like this where hundreds could potentially be influenced, then you ought to know the difference between "sinful" and "harmful."

    The stone of David was extremely harmful to Goliath, but the stone was not sinful.

    Those nasty fajitas I ate were not rebelling against God just because they were way to salty to suit me.

    As far as creation declaring the glory of God- it does this, but not literally. It does not have a brain whereby it formulates thoughts of praise unto God and then literally declares it.

    I bought my wife a Kindle Fire a while back. That Kindle Fire declares my love for her. But not LITERALLY. It does not have moral properties that reflect love in itself. It is just a token of my goodness.

    That's what creation is- a token of God's goodness. It no more actually contains "moral goodness" than my wife's Kindle Fire literally contains my love.

    You need to think this through, agedman.

    And as far as the earth being obliterated- this does not happen. It "passes away" the same way your body will "pass away". But that same body will be resurrected and glorified.

    The earth will perish just like your body will perish.

    The meek shall inherit the EARTH.

    God promised the Earth to Abraham's seed FOREVER.

    Psalm 148 says:
    4Praise him, you highest heavens

    and you waters above the skies.

    5Let them praise the name of the Lord,

    for he commanded and they were created.

    6He set them in place for ever and ever;

    he gave a decree that will never pass away.


    Ps. 78:69; 89:36-37; 93:1; 96:10; 104:5; 119:90; 148:4,6; Eccl. 1:4; Eph. 3:21 and others show that the earth will endure forever.
     
  4. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    Again, could you please define "negative Music" (no lyrics remember!)
     
  5. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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  6. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    A few things for Bro. James...

    True, but we must define "fleshly" biblically, not arbitrarily in ways that add restrictions to scripture like the pharisees did.

    -You don't go far enough...ALL our worship efforts will fall flat and be useless to God unless mediated through Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit. My good worship is not the basis of my standing with God...Christ's righteousness is.

    1. All music has a beat.

    2. God created Equatorial Africa.

    Yes, and staying locked in my house all day with no phone, TV, or internet is the safest position in terms of avoiding sin and worldly influence, as well as physical accidents...but God does not call us to look for the "safest position." He calls us to be bold and Go. Ha also calls us to worship him with joy, to praise him with loud singing, to praise him with loud cymbals!
     
  7. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    With that example I gave, I went a little off topic in order to explain my analogy of finding good food in a dumpster. This is an area where we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that music can be sinful to listen to, even without lyrics, and you do not. I hold no ill-will towards someone who disagrees with me.

    I definitely agree that some music is wrong for some people and ok for others. As an example, when I was a teenager I had a man as the youth leader who played the guitar beautifully. He would only play hymns and "Bob Jones" style music though. He was saved out of the honky-tonk/bar scene, and told us that if he played that way, his flesh longed for his past. I completely understood that it would be wrong for him to play that style of music, while I myself would enjoy it.

    However, I still stand by my statement of an absolute. I believe that there is music, devoid of lyrics, that shows rebellion against God. And I believe that to listen to this music is wrong. I know where my line is. But, again, I am not hear to tell people where the line is. Kind of like my stance on drinking. I know where my line is (complete abstinence), but if someone else wants to drink, I do not condemn them.
     
  8. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    So just to press a bit more, you speak of an absolute statement that you are convinced certain music shows rebellion against God...but then yous peak of "MY LINE. Is it a real line, an absolute line that you truly believe applies to all people, such that if I listen to the type of music your are thinking of I am sinning... or is it simply YOUR line? (Compared to the Alchohol issue, is abstinence YOUR line, or is it what you believe is the BIBLICAL line that applies to all people, such that to drink one glass of wine for any reason is sinful?).

    And one more: If the line is absolute...Where is the line, if I may ask?

    If the line is not absolute, but varies for different people, how can it be said that there is absolutely instrumental music that shows rebellion against God?
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    But Brother it is not okay for you to believe, even for your own self, that something is sinful when you have no Bible to support it.

    If you don't have real reasons from the Bible that you can communicate for why something is wrong, then you have no business thinking it is.

    Now, I think there are reasons and evidences to support the notion that some music is harmful to most people, that some music is depressing, that some music stimulates emotions of anger and sadness.

    But when you've provided all of those reasons you still have not established that these types of music are sinful to listen to.

    It is not sinful to be angry. God gets angry. God gets angry with us when we DON'T get angry about what He is angry about.

    It is not a sin to be sad. Sometimes it is a sin NOT to be sad.

    And harmful is simply not synonymous with sinful. They are often related, true- but they are not synonymous and they are not ALWAYS related.

    It is not ok to believe ANYTHING without good reasons.
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I think the real issue is not whether or not certain types of music are in and of themselves sinful to listen to in all circumstances.

    I think anyone who claims that has not thought it through.

    But I think some who claim it are ACTUALLY onto something that IS sinful which the all-music-is-ok-for-all-occasions crowd misses.

    The issue is APPROPRIATENESS.

    On one hand people say some music is sinful EVERYWHERE and AT ALL TIMES. Wrong.

    On the other people say that ALL types of music are permissible to be used EVERYWHERE and AT ALL TIMES. wrong.

    Worship is the major divide here. It is not appropriate or good or God-honoring to create an atmosphere that makes God seem less than he is.

    God was very, VERY specific about how he expected to be worshiped. He would kill you if you did not worship him accordingly. He would destroy the nation if the worship was casual. He DID destroy the nation over that very thing (read Malachi).

    It is SINFULLY inappropriate to employ music that sets an atmosphere that is contradictory to God's majesty, holiness, might, sovereignty, transcendence, beauty, grace and goodness.

    It is SINFULLY inappropriate to play "Jesus is my girlfirend" type music in the house of God for Lord's Day worship. You know what kind of music I am talking about- music whose sound and lyrics would allow you to replace the name Jesus with "Shelia" and march right on unabated.

    But Southern Gospel is often equally sinfully inappropriate.

    I find that those who love redneck style music in the Church are most often the ones who have the biggest problem with contemporary music in the church. The former is no better than the latter- that's for sure.
     
  11. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    As far as the alcohol issue, I believe that the line that I have drawn for myself is the Biblical line. I believe that people who drink are wrong. But I won't condemn everyone who believes that drinking is ok. They believe that they are right just as much as I believe I am right. I am going to teach my children that it is wrong, and back it up with scripture.

    As with drinking, I believe my line with music the the Biblical (ovbiously not stated in the Bible, but inferred from principles) line. Again though, I am not going to condemn anyone who has a different line.

    Here's the problem. I can't say that such-and-such genre is bad to listen to. Because a genre is such a broad brush that covers so many different bands and individual styles, you can't point your finger at a genre. The line is drawn when you can no longer praise God with the music. I believe that a majority of rap music falls into this category. Because of the "in your face" beats and rythms, and the mind numbing repetitious bass lines, I don't believe that God can be praised with the majority of music in that style.

    Rock music, on the other hand, varies a lot more. There are some strictly instrumental rock pieces that could bring praise to God given the right lyrics. The song that comes to mind immediately is "Awesome God". If you were to listen to the music itself, it sounds like rock. But you add the lyrics, and you have a powerful song telling the world how great our God is.

    With this all in mind, I can't say that any particular genre is wrong. It's down to individual songs. The question is, can you honestly use that music and put Christian words to it and glorify God?

    Luke, I appreciate your position. And I know that the Bible doesn't explicitly say anything about music. But, I believe that based upon principles, especially the one about doing everything to the glory of God, we can derive which music should be acceptable and which shouldn't be. And I definitely agree that some good music is inappropriate at some times.

    I agree with a lot of what you said. But another reason that I think some music is wrong is because of the negative attitudes which it can give us. The Bible doesn't say anything about not smoking cigarettes, but we know that we are not to harm our bodies. Some music can negatively affect the mind (not even counting the iDose stuff I brought up earlier), causing us to be angry (and not in a righteous anger) among other things. I view this the same as smoking. Even though it's not explicitly stated in the Bible, the prinicple is there.
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Then you're going to mislead your children based on a lack of understanding of the Scriptures.

    You're probably going to take Proverbs and teach them as precepts which is a terrible error.

    You certainly can't teach it outside of proverbs.

    And if you do teach it from proverbs it's because you don't understand that different biblical genres of literature are to be interpreted differently. If you teach Proverbs the same way you teach the epistles, you have BADLY mislead your children.

    And you're going to have to ignore Scriptures where God speaks very positively of alcoholic beverages and when you do that you are going to misrepresent God to your children- and that's not good at all.

    If you say God hates something that he loves, you've done a bad thing.

    If you say God says something is bad when God says it is good- you've done a very bad thing.
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But the principle is taught "outside of proverbs." That some do not see that principle or choose to ignore the principle does not make the principle nonexistent.

    The principle being found in multiple places, brings the precept. Just as any other topic in which the principle is stated and shown by example.

    Very few times is there a "thou shalt..." in Scriptures, but the principles throughout point back to the basic precepts, and instill precepts into the life of a believer.

    The believer is to establish boundaries and rules based upon principles - not precepts. Precepts are the boundaries and rules not the cause for the boundaries and rules. The cause for the boundaries and rules is the principles.

    The Decalogue is a set of ten rules. Each rule is based upon a set of principles.

    I have posted enough on this topic already to show for sure and for certain that the Proverbs only restate in brief what is shown through the Scriptures.

    Proverbs are to be taught as principles that build precepts. To suggest that they are less is incorrect. In the Proverbs the lines between principle and precept are joined. One cannot study the principles without understanding that certain precepts are to be the resulting built structure in their life.

    The principle set forth from the example of the foolish man and the silly woman should establish a precept in a person to be wise and avoid the foolish and foolishness - don't flirt with fire and not expect to be burned is a principle that as a precept in a person's life keeps them from harm.
     
  14. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

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    And the thread has derailed from Music to alcohol. Luke, please respond to the original topic instead of picking out one of my answers from my post and derailing the thread. The question was asked of me in relation to how I felt about a line drawn. I've seen all the arguements for and against drinking, and made my decision. But this is not what the thread is about. It's about music.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Fair enough.

    The point that IS relevant though is that the way you draw the line on music is the same error you make on alcohol.

    The problem is not THAT you believe all alcohol is bad and that some music is sinful- the problem is the WAY you draw lines.

    The Bible does not teach either.

    The Bible actually teaches that alcohol is a GOOD thing and that sin comes from within a person's heart hence it is not a substance or a conglomeration of sounds.
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    You make an unfounded assumption that the Bible actually teaches that alcohol is a good thing.

    That just isn't more than an assumption on your part and that assumption can be shown (as has been on other threads) an incorrect rendering of the Scriptures.

    The same is applied to music.

    As has been shown on this thread, there are certain sound configurations that have evil impacts and effects to the human body and condition that result in behaviors that are not typical for that person under normal rational conditions. Even the law enforcement uses such techniques as well as behavioral music therapists.

    The assumption that music in particular is benign and amoral is a false assumption. Even a casual investigation into the worldly documentation as shown below shows the physical and psychological effects of music.

    http://suite101.com/article/the-psychology-of-music-a45967

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2489234?uid=3739920&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56306750993
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That's not an assumption. The Bible clearly says it. God not only claims to have made the wine which makes merry the heart of man but he also tells his people to go and buy strong drink.

    What you do not have is one single verse of Scripture that says that ANY substance is inherently evil.

    Nor do you have a single passage that says that people should never drink strong drink- not one.

    Define "evil impacts".

    The problem, brother, is that you don't seem to understand what EVIL is.
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    First - it seems you want "evil" to only be what is generated in the heart, or comes from the heart. There is that truth, however evil from outside coming inside caused the pigs to hurl themselves into the sea to drown. The Father of lies is outside the body, but the impact is seen in every deceitful word and action that comes from the heart of even the believer.

    Evil is not camped in one place.

    "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

    Evil is not confined. It is a war and will use any force and bear any object in the rebellion against God.

    Next time you talk to a farmer, ask if he considers the weeds good and not inherently evil to his work and fruit of his labor.

    Apply that to God's work, and to the believer's walk.



    As far as the "assumptions," you are wrong on two counts.

    First, there is plenty, as I myself have posted in other threads, dealing with intoxicants. That you don't desire to recognize those verses as applicable is not sufficient cause for me to rehash the information. Besides, this thread is not the place for that discussion.

    Second, you are wrong about music, As I have shown by documentation that even the world of the unregenerate understands what you seemingly don't, I really don't know what more you need to be offered.

    I cannot help you understand what you willfully refuse as being wrong in desire to accept some supposed "benefit" and God given enjoyment.

    If you want to state your views in terms as one states an assumption, that is not so much a problem.

    But to declare Scriptural authority over your assumptions and goad another into accepting the assumption as fact, is wrong.

    You want to drink - fine, but do not think that God approves. Your view that He approves is YOUR view. It does not disprove those who do not hold that view and find Scriptural support for their stand against intoxicants.

    You want to fill your mind and heart with sounds that in the genesis are meant to be hurtful not only to the body but the mind - fine. But do not think that God approves. Your assumptions do not disprove what even the world sees as effecting the heart, mind and strength of a living organism.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    The Father of Lies and demons are persons. That illustration supports the facts I am trying to get you to see.

    Harmful and sinful are not the same thing.

    A course in hamartiology would help you, brother.


    No, there are not. There's not one single verse in all of the Bible that condemns the responsible consumption of alcohol. Not one.

    I have seen the arguments in those threads. I am not a newcomer to this site, brother.

    I've seen the horrific wresting of Scriptures that teetotlers do in these debates.

    You have no Bible- NONE.

    You have not shown anything that demonstrates that any music is intrinsically evil.

    I agree that music can have all kinds of effects on people. I am death against most types of music being employed in the worship of God in his house on the Lord's Day.

    But the fact that music can make one happy, sad, angry or sick does not at all establish that music has morality.

    God not only approves but he also wants to be praised for making it and bids his people to enjoy it responsibly.

    Harmful is not sinful. Martyrdom is harmful to the body.:rolleyes:
     
  20. Berean

    Berean Member
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    Would playing the music to When I Survey The Wonderous Cross bless your soul if you had never heard the lyrics? Would Playing the music only to America The Beautiful be a patriotic song and thrill you as it does me and most everyone else? Imagine by THE Beetles would only be a piece of amoral music without the lyrics but when you add the lyrics it becomes blasphemy.
     
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