The Antichrist - Revealed Before Or After The Rapture?

Well, I don't know your background. You may have spent 10 years or so studying the Roman Empire, ancient greek texts (both biblical and extra-biblical), engravings on stones, coins and such, as my prof. did. You haven't had the chance to explain your background in koine greek, upon which to make the claim the gates on seige towers where not "ever" called gates.

My Greek Prof. taught greek and historical backgrounds mostly. One thing he always stressed to his students was to be careful not to bring pre-concieved notions to the text of scripture. He also stressed context. He also stressed understanding the origional language and the way words were used at the time the texts were written.

I never had a conversation with him concerning dispensational theories. I know he had a Masters Degree from Dallas Theo. Seminary (I hear they tend to be dispensationalist there), and a PhD from Southern.

I will have to disagree with you that the lost are "in a very real sense-in hell". You seem to be grasping at straws in order to defend your previous statement.

From your previous post:

If the "prisoners" are behind the gates of hell and the gates of hell cannot keep them in hell or from salvation when Christ calls them out, then you certainly appear to be saying or insinuating that people in hell get out when Christ calls them. That certainly looks like they get another chance to be saved.

peace to youraying:

 

LOL...:laugh:
You don't need a degree in Koine Greek to know he is wrong about his assumption.
Just check any and all lexicons at your disposal. But Yes, I have a great love for antiquity not only cultually but also weapons and engines of war.

Secondly, you stated these towers were 'called' siege Gates as shown here in your previous posting:

Then you states this about these 'siege weapons' called "Gates".

As you can see you never refered to or alluded to the point of 'gates' being ON these seige engines but that they were in fact 'called' "Gates" or Siege Gates.
But to illistrate more accurately your own statement here is more:

You have your own words confused.

Then you should listen to him, it might have been a test.
As I stated, they were not called siege gates but siege 'towers'.

Have a little fun and try to find over the internet any serious or credible site that states these seige towers were called seige "gates" before the middle ages but even then it was seldom used. they were typically called belfry's.

Ok, is an unregenerate person a child of God or not? -No. (then who's children are they presently)
Are they citizens of Heaven currently? No, (then to what place of they citzens of)
Are the unregenerate in fellowship with God? No, (the are they seperated from Him?)
Are those who are in Hell scripturally those who are condemned? Yes, (then to what place are those who are under condemnation resigned to be in and thus apart of?)

So yes, in a very real sense we are called out of darkness (hell - which scripture states is a place of darkness) and into His glorious light.

Being a 'prisoner' of hell does not mean you are behind it's gates in a physical sense though it is a literal one. Hell is a spiritual place just as Heaven is. And if you are not in Christ (heaven itself) then biblically speaking are of hell to which we are made prisoners of our own choosing being under condemnation till the judgment. There is no third option.

 

Like 99% of Christians, you know nothing about the doctrine of "CHASTISEMENT".

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

Did you "Literally die" when your body of sin was crucified to be saved,

Or was it a "Spiritual death" of the old man rather than a literal death???

If you're going to "Conform to Jesus's Image", the old body of sin will have to die either spiritually or literally, there's no other way to be saved.

How many people were taken out and literally killed in the USA yesterday because they had the testimony of Christ??

After the rapture, any confessing Christ will be killed, throughout the whole world, Satan is given power over all "FLESH".

So "WHY" isn't satan turned loose on Christians today, two reasons,

1. Jesus suffer the "Stripes of Chastisement" in "his flesh" for the church,
2. Holy Ghost presents keeps Satan at bay.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

God can/does make people suffer the "Stripes of Chastisement" in their own flesh, if they rebell against God, which Israel did.

To "DRINK OF JESUS'S CUP" means to crucify the body of sin, the church does this "Spiritually",

As Chastisement, During the trib anyone who wants to be saved will have to be willing to "literally die" for Jesus's salvation,

if they confess Jesus/won't worship the beast image, they shoud be killed,

And God approves of satan "crucifying their old body of sin", the reason God gave Satan power over all flesh.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men,(AC) and with the stripes of the children of men: (wicked people of the "prince" (AC) to come)

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (God's approval)

During the trib, God will require a "literal death" of the "Body of sin" as Chastisement.

The "LAST TRUMP" of the "Voice of the COMFORTER" (Jesus) will take the church/Comforter out of the world and Satan will then be turned loose on "ALL FLESH", saved or lost, until "NO FLESH" would survive unless Jesus returns to stop it.

(Dust to dust/Satan eats dust/roaring devouring lion)

Obviously, there's things about the scripture you don't understand, and can't learn because you reject anything that contradict your present belief,

Israel did the same thing with Jesus, and like Israel, "YOU" end up being hurt the worse by it,

Even with open eyes/ears, you'll never learn all the scripture, and learning is a process of "Changing your belief" as new information become available.

And like Israel, "YOU" reject new information.

 

I appreciate your interest in Koine Greek and history.

Please look up the greek word "ergov" in your lexicon. It means "work" in a general sense.

It is often used, in non-biblical references, to refer to military embankments and other military "works".

My lexicon doesn't mention that usage, although the usage was very common.

So, by your own research you acknoweldge the towers were called "gates" during the middle ages, but only seldomly?

And yet, it seems impossible to you that Jesus used that meaning when referring to the "gates of hell"?

No, an unregenerate person is not a child of God. If you can show me from scripture that all unregenerate persons are referred to as children of Satan, then I will believe it.

They are citizens of the world, not hell. Unless you do not believe hell is a literal place?

OK, they are separated from Him. He is in heaven and they are in the world.

They are condemned to be there after their death and/or after their judgement. Not currently, while they are in the world.

You are twisting and stretching the clear meaning of scripture to conform to your pre-concieved notions of dispensational theology.

Christ does not mention "prisoners" in the Matt. 16 passage. You are adding that to attempt to make the passage conform to your beliefs.

Nonsense. You and I are in the world right now. We are not in heaven, although we have Christ as Savior. We are not in "hell", being held prisoners by satan until Christ returns.

We are in the 3rd option. We are in the world.

I don't know where you are getting this, but, quite frankly, it sounds like you are just making it up as you go.

peace to youraying:

 

Did all this nonsense come out of the Left Behind fiction by LeHaye? Do you consider the Left Behind series New Information. The Canon was closed with the Book of Revelation. There will be no New Information/Revelation from God don't you know.

It seems to me that the only people on this forum with closed minds are dispensationalists.

 

You know something, I'm debating an atheist on a topic on another forum, and his posts are less vitriolic than yours are. Quit with the ad hominems.

 

I have debated Roman Catholics on another forum and their responses were much more Christ like than that of dispensationalists. I don't believe that any of them ever implied or stated that I thought God was a liar. That accusation has been made to me several times by different people on this Forum.

By the way why would anyone want to debate an atheist, a fool. Scripture teaches us:

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

By the way webdog you might practice what you preach:

 

I don't read books about the bible, most of the authors/books I learn about someone post on the net or are in the news.

I've never read the "left behind" series, so I don't know what is in them.

The onyl three books I recall ever reading were, late Great planet earth, Hal Lindsey, Angels, Billy Graham, Antichrist, A.W Pink.

You know the Jew told Jesus the same thing, the OT is complete, we don't find any of your "Revelations" in the OT.


Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:






Daniel wrote a book that God said the interpretation would not be revealed until the "time of the end".

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Like Israel, Your theory that nothing new is left to be revealed won't hold any more water than Israel's theory.

The "closed minded" people are the one who don't know when their doctrines contradict other parts of scripture.

Like when Jesus said the gates of hell could never "Prevail" against church saints, and when they resisted satan he would flee.

now explain why Satan can attacks, "Prevail", against Saints in the tribulation and doesn't have to flee but kills them if they resist him???

Did Jesus "LIE", or does this "Dispensation" when Satan does have to flee come to an end???

And "WHAT" marks the end of this dispensation????

 

Τα ελληνικά, ναι ενδιαφέροντα . Είναι καλύτερα τώρα από αυτό που ήταν, αλλά ένα πρόσωπο μπορεί πάντα να μάθει περισσότεροι. Σκέφτομαι ότι είστε σε θέση να με διδάξετε περισσότερο, ναι; Ok enough fun, and my knowledge of Greek is another matter altogether.

As I stated, it doesn't take a degree to know you and your Prof. are absolutely wrong on this. And that is without question.

Seriously though, did you even look up the word in any Greek Lexicons or info from other 'noted' Greek scholars? Have you even researched your prof's claim? If not then it appears you haven't done any studying on the matter and this seems evident because there is NO such evidence to make such a conclusion, specifically during that time period.

Secondly, Hell/Shoel is a place in the OT said to have 'gates'. I assume you know this.
(Job 17:16; Job 38:17; Isa. 38:10; Ps. 9:14)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the passage in question.
The word to look up isn't "ergov" (works) but "pylē" (gate) and it is in this usage that you will never find it linked to a siege engine of any kind which YOU stated is what Jesus was talking about. Nonsense!

Secondly, where is 'ergov' even in the text?

Yep. Words have meaning and this word for gate means just that - a gate.

So when we read scripture stating that Christ brings the prisoners from (or 'out of') the prison and those out of the prison 'house', then we are not to believe this?

If a person is not a child of God then who child pray-tell is he?
If a person is under God's wrath is he a child of God? Scripture states we are all under God's wrath till salvation. You are ONLY a child of God when you become saved (John 1:12)

If one is a prisoner then to whom are they set under and in 'where'? The only thing scripture correlates a prison to spiritually is hell, where spirits are said to be in 'prison (thus prisoners), and the devil cast into hell, in Jesus parable about servant cast into prison symbolizing hell, ect...

We are physcially here yes, but we are ALSO spiritual with the Father just as we are with one another. Though we are not physically there we are in spirit. Did they not teach you this in school?? Yes, to be in the world makes one apart of the world but the 'world' itself is not spiritual and the 'worldly system' is that which is 'of' hell. We are children of God THROUGH the new Birth not before and if we are not Children of God then we are children of the devil. We are family of those to whom we are children and we are of that which they are apart.

 

First, I mentioned ergov to demonstrate that just because a Greek lexicon doesn't mention a specific use of a word doesn't mean it wasn't a common usage. There is no doubt that the word "ergov" (work) was commonly used to refer to military embankments and other activities.

Secondly, you have not demonstrated that the word "gate" was not used to refer to a Roman siege tower, and in fact, you stated that the word "gate" was used to refer to siege towers in the middle ages.

Well, my old prof., whom I consider to be an expert on that time period and the greek language, has stated that the word "gate" was used to refer to the siege towers because they had "gates" at the top that allowed access to the city.

That seems for more probable than constructing an elaborate theology where sinners on earth are already in hell spiritually and Christ is coming to free them from the gates of hell.

That is nonsense.

My understanding of the O.T. word "sheol" is that it refers to "death" or the "grave" rather than a more developed idea of "hell".

But let's take a look:

Job 17:13 "If I look for Sheol as my home, I make my bed in the darkness; (14)If I call to the pit (sheol), 'You are my father'; To the worm, 'my mother and my sister'; (15) Where now is my hope? (16) Will it go down with me to Sheol? Shall we together go down into the dust?"

First observation: There is no mention of "gates" in this passage.
Second observation: Job is obviously speaking of dying and going into the grave. He mentions the "worm" and going down into the "dust".

Isa. 38:1 "In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and siad to him,'Thus says the LORD, Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.'"

(5) "God and say to Hezekiah, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add fifteen years to your life."

(9)A writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, after his illness and recovery: (10) Isaid, "In the middle of my life I am to enter the gates of Sheol; I am to be deprived of the rest of my years...."

Hezekiah is speaking of dying. That is clear from the context. He is not speaking of "hell" as you are saying. He is speaking of going to the grave. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ps.9:14 "That I may tell of all thy praises, That in the gates of the daughter of Zion I may rejoice in Thy salvation." ????

The "gates of the daughter of Zion" refers to Jerusalem? Certainly not hell.

Maybe you meant 9:13 "Be gracious to me, O LORD; Behold my affliction from those who hate me, Thou who dost lift me up from the gates of death; (death= The Hebrew word "maveth" from "muwth", which means death; not the Hebrew word for "sheol")

Which includes a gate on the top of a siege tower.

It doesn't say Christ brings them out of hell, which is what you are claiming. You have to read that interpretation into the text to make it fit your theology.

The language can figuratively refer to any number to things.

All you have to do is show me scripture that likens being in the world to being in hell. That would support your contention.

peace to youraying:

 

Do you know what a lexicon is and what it is used 'for'? Thus where it gets its words/phrases from in order to properly understand them?

Actually I have. I asked for "YOU" to find one Lexicon or any noted Greek Scholar (with the exception of your 'prof') to validate such a claim.

Yes, I state it was used and that seldomly, during the middle to late Middle Ages. And you do realize that is 1000+ years later.

IOW - you never researched what he said but blindly believed him with NO Proof of anything he said. Secondly some had 'gates' but most were open ended a tthe top to allow for a quick disembarking due to the necessity of a quick cature and control.

That is because it is apparent you haven't studied anything on this but simply believed what you were told.

Then you might need to study Hebrew a little more. Yes it refers to the "place of the dead" which encompasses both spiritual underworld AND physical grave. A.T. Robertson quotes noted scholar Paige in stating "he who is dead is in hades". It is a statement that references the full meaning of the word Sheol. The Hebrew language has words that simply mean 'grave' and that being a tomb, burial, seplecur. But sheol is a word that not only references this aspect but goes beyond just the burial plot encompassing the underworld as well. Seriously, look it up. I have written about this point a lot in another recent thread concerning Jesus suffering in hell. We all agreed that He did not suffer so no that was not context in which I was presenting it.

Actaully it is an inaccurate though not necessarly wrong. You are right that the Hebrew word for 'gate' is not listed but the Hebrew word (בד ) bad meaning to be seperated or alone and when used in conjunction with the term sheol makes it so it can be rendered as cells or compartments due to them being alone. Thus you will find in many translations this wording of bars or gates:

It holds the same Hebraic meaning as Isa 38:10:

The word for 'gates' here is "sha`ar (שער)" which means just that a gate or entrance and Grave here is the word "sheol" meaning who meaning is not only grave but encompasses both aspects of the spiritual underworld and the burial grave because both are one and the same in using this word. Otherwise they could have used other Hebrew words to mean simply the grave.
If you know anything about the Hebrew language surely you know this!

Yes, I did not dispute this but the terem sheol should not be understood as simply the grave but that it refers to BOTH durial AND the "place of the dead" also known as the underworld. Job himself even used the Hebrew word (קבר) qeber (meaning simply grave, sepulchre, tomb) at various times in his own writting (ex Job 3:22; Job 5:25; Job 10:19, ect.... So to use the term "sheol" was to mean something more than just the grave because the word encompasses more than that.

Yes, the grave or buring place is 'part' of what sheol means but that is not it's "Primary" meaning. It might behoove you to study up on what the terms "sheol" and "hades" actaully mean and not just what someone told you.

No, I meant this verse but I left off in my editting that this word for gates here is the same used by Isaiah in Chapter 38:10 about the gates of the shoel.

What!.. LOL.. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with gates on top of a siege tower. You made up.. but I will say it was quite funny.

No, I merely state what scripture on the whole states. The word Jesus uses is the word "hades" and is a direct reference to the 'place of the dead'.

As I said there is NO rendering of the Greek word "pylē" (gate) used in or for the meaning you are redefining to. Furthermore there is no one thologian I can find who agrees with such an ascertion. As I said there are only two rendering for this passage concerning the gates of hell not prevailing against the Church.
1. is that Hell can not keep those who are assigned it due to their being under condemnation. (wich also encompasses #2)
2. that no idea, plan, or contrivence from hell can prevail against the Church.
(this idea you will find in the main of those regarding the Soveriegn Grace Doctrines.)

There are not any others that I can find. There might be, but these are the main that are proposed by scholars and theologians alike.

And that is part of what I think your problem is. You think it can mean any number of things because you view much of the scripture as figuritive/alegorical. Nothing inherently wrong with taking things figuritively but there are meanings established in scripture that allow us to know what they mean. Terms like 'sheol' and 'hades' which are figuritive in that they do not mean simply one things but encompass functionally two both the grave and the spiritual underworld/place of the dead/ hell.

 

Most lexicons are geared to biblical references. I am speaking of the use of the word in other primary sources. It simply could be that the Matt. 16 passage is the only place in scripture where it is used in this way, thus making it difficult to compare if you don't see the use from other primary sources.

I don't have access to primary sources., nor am I an expert on koine Greek. My old prof., who did have access and studied those resources and is an expert, gave his opinion concerning the issue. If he ever writes a book on it, I'll give you the info.

As I noted earlier with the word "ergov", it is simply a fact that the word "ergov" (work) is often used in non-biblical references to military embankments. This is clear when you study non-biblical resources.

I looked through my copy of Josephus, and he regularly refers to the Roman "works" when speaking of the Romans building embankments near the walls during the siege of Jerusalem.

I give this as an example of a word that has a common use in non-biblical sources that is not mentioned in a lexicon.

As long as you admit you're wrong about its use...thank you very much.:smilewinkgrin:

From my very limited research, all stated the top of the tower was protected until close to the wall.

As I suspect we all could benefit from such an exercise.

I don't know anything about the Hebrew language. Give me some of the "other" Hebrew words that mean "simply the grave" so I can study them and learn more about Hebrew.

I was not referring to "maveth" with this statement. This was the exchange referring to the greek word for gate:

peace to youraying:

 

Is it me? Or has this thread veered way off subject? :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

 

Yes, I suppose it has.

peace to youraying:

 

Lexicons expound those words or phrases (depending on your lexicon) which are found in scipture. It does this not only by referencing it's usage in the scritpures contextually but also shows it's historic secular usage to, that we might better understand how the word is meant to be understood.

No, it is impossible that it could be because there is NO historical data for that time period using the word 'gate' to refer to a siege tower. That usage only happens 1000 years later. So yes a comparison can be done and it establishes without a doubt this usage is wrong by any stretch.

If you would PM his name and college. That way I can 'very respectfully' ask him for his thoughts/understanding and what he researched in order to come to such a conclusion. That way, in the very least, I will have his resourses to study and examine.

This is meaningless to the discussion at hand since lexicons do include secular understanding and usage in expounding a words meaning (specifically those words observed in scripture), and the word in question is "pylē" (gate)" and not "ergov" (military works).

I have never denied its usage, I have only denied that it was used historically to ever refer to a siege tower. :thumbs:

I don't know anything about the Hebrew language. Give me some of the "other" Hebrew words that mean "simply the grave" so I can study them and learn more about Hebrew.
I already did, specifically in the book of Job where you questioned the usage of sheol to mean only the grave. see below from post #71:

another word used off the top of my head is (קבורה) qĕbuwrah (like in Gen 35:20 meaning - grave or buial)

 

Could you give the source where "gate" is used to refer to a siege tower?

peace to youraying:

 

Way before.

 

The people of Jeremiah's day was being taught by the Priests that God would not harm His House, the Temple at Jerusalem. They came by that reasoning because of the failed Assyrian siege of Jerusalem. They forgot that it was the repentance of Judah's King that caused God to turn back the Assyrian assault.

They knew that the northern tribes fell to the forces of Nineveh because God had judged them several generations before theirs and that God stopped Sennacherib before he could sack Jerusalem. 2Kings chapter 18. However their memory of Hezekiah's humbleness in chapter 19 was lost and Judah's salvation by repentance forgotten.

The Laodiceans are called on to repentance just as Jeremiah's message was to call Judah to repent. Yet they could not see their depravity before God as they felt they had safety because of their proximity to the Temple.

While Grace gives us that which we can never pay, it never gives us the right to indulge in the things of the world. Yet many of the Church are indeed following after the world in the very same manner that Jeremiah describes in verses 8-11. God vomited His people from His presence but He never forsook them as the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, Esther, Nehemiah and Ezra tells us of their 70 years of tribulation while in exile.

The people took offense of the words of Jeremiah and imprisoned him for treason. Much the same is given the preacher that dares to teach that the Church will go through tribulation. :tear:

Though God is sickened by the spiritual attitude/condition of Laodicea He never forsakes it.

God would have spared Jerusalem the captivity had it's people had listened to Jeremiah and He will spare our generation as soon as we get a clue to our worldliness and repent.

 

A good start would be to stop the murder of the unborn. Strange that people still talk about the murder of 6 million Jews by Nazi Germany sixty years later but close their eyes and ears to the cry of 4000 babies murdered each day in abortuaries.

Then we need to learn that inviting the world into the church in whatever form is like inviting Satan to spend the night with you, he won't leave.

Scripture states: For I am the LORD, I change not. [Malachi 3:6] Therefore, there is no reason for the church to change as the world turns.

Jesus Christ states: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. [John 4:24] Unfortunately a lot of churches have totally forgotten the worship in truth part.