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Featured The Arminian Trinity

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 10, 2017.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Almost all Arminian argument includes at least one of these improperly exegeted texts.

    1) Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (ESV)”

    2) 1 Timothy 2:4 "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (ESV)

    3) 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. (ESV)​

    With the help of some of my Calvinistic friends I hope, I will attempt to convince those of you who are of the "free will" group, of the proper meaning of these texts and look forward to debating each point with as many reasonable, rational, opponents as there are willing and able to do so.
     
    #1 thatbrian, Dec 10, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  2. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    I look forward to watching this thread.
     
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  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Why?

    HankD
     
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  4. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Because I learn a lot watching these threads.
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    As Jehovah, this had always been the case concerning Jerusalem down through the centuries, not only during the incarnation.

    4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; 1 Tim 2 YLT

    'All anthropos', as in 'not of the Jews only', but Gentiles also:

    23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
    24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3

    Notice the big YOU. As the apostle to the circumcision Peter was addressing a Jewish audience, and the 'perishing' is the same as in Luke:

    1 Now there were some present at that very season who told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
    2 And he answered and said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they have suffered these things?
    3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
    4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and killed them, think ye that they were offenders above all the men that dwell in Jerusalem?
    5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lu 13
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

    ...and the longsuffering and the repentance is the same as in Revelation:

    21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. Rev 2
     
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  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Because we may all learn something?
     
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  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Apologies for not getting this going. I posted right before heading to worship service, and I am feeling a bit unwell, ATM, but I'll start with the text from Mathew. Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! (ESV)”

    As a prooftext for Arminian soteriology, this one falls flat. Here's why. Looking at the context, we can see that Jesus was addressing the religious leaders "scribes and Pharacees".

    Please be patient in reading the passage the context of the verse in question. I've bolded all of the references to them. There are many!

    Matthew 23:1–37

    [1] Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, [2] “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, [3] so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. [4] They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. [5] They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, [6] and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues [7] and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others. [8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. [9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. [10] Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. [11] The greatest among you shall be your servant. [12] Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

    [13] “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. [15] Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    [16] “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ [17] You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? [18] And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ [19] You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? [20] So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. [21] And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. [22] And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.

    [23] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. [24] You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

    [25] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. [26] You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.

    [27] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness. [28] So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

    [29] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, [30] saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ [31] Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [32] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. [33] You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? [34] Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, [35] so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. [36] Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

    [37] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! (ESV)
     
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  8. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Please enlighten me. First, I've never seen this passage used as a defense of arminianism, pelagianism, or semi-pelagianism. Second, I'm dense enough that I don't see how this could be used as such a defense; nor as an argument for or against calvinism.

    Please walk me through it.
     
  9. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you haven't had as many discussions about this subject as I have, Don, but it comes up a lot. Admittedly, the other two come up with more frequency, but don't take my word for it. Just put Google to use. Enter, "Matthew 23:37 Arminian" into your Google search box and see how many results you get. In fact, that will also answer your second question, too, and likely better than I could.
     
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  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Generally i would agree but the donnybrook and the heat generated by the freeforall debate betwixt C and A rather than learning something a greater wedge is driven between brethren.

    What is learned is that the flesh is alive and well amidst brethren.

    I suppose that's OK if we don't carry a grudge but it seems there have been wounded spirits caused by this debate.

    HankD
     
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  11. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Oh, I dunno. I've been a member of this board longer than most. I've watched quite a few discussions; just don't recall seeing this verse debated before.

    As for the aecond point, yes, I'll be happy to google that; but don't forget your own words:
    "With the help of some of my Calvinistic friends I hope, I will attempt to convince those of you who are of the "free will" group, of the proper meaning of these texts and look forward to debating each point with as many reasonable, rational, opponents as there are willing and able to do so."
     
  12. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Which is why I usually don't get involved in this debate area.
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Meanwhile, the Calvinist clings to Ezekiel 36, which is clearly addressing Israel's restoration and the Jews as God's chosen people, when they claim that God must give Gentiles a new heart before they can be regenerated.
     
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    I tend to think the discussion of our respective positions on the subject, and our reasons for holding those positions, is a very instructive use of the BB and our time.

    We learn what the "other side" believes, and why, and they learn what we believe, and why. And they can point out the fallacies of our understandings and we can point out the fallacies of their understandings.

    To me that is a very valuable tool for growth and mutual understanding.

    Proverbs 27:17 "Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens his friend’s countenance."

    "Learned men sharpen one another's minds, and excite each other to learned studies." John Gill.

    Being called upon to defend our understandings is of great value to us.
    I disagree. In some cases a few of the participants engage in fleshly conduct, but for the most part information is exchanged and errors of understanding are corrected for those who have ears to hear.

    I think the only spirits wounded are those who discover they cannot successfully defend their positions and, rather than digging deeper into the word, they take it personally.

    I, personally, find such discussions quite valuable for two reasons. First to sharpen my ability to defend my understanding, and secondly, to learn how the other side defends theirs.
     
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  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.
    This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself. Sproul.
     
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  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No argument from me.

    Yeah, remind me--do dead men not cooperate with grace? Or do dead men not seek God? Or do dead men hate God? Seems like there are several attributes given to "dead men".

    Nowhere to be found in the Bible, but a construct of TULIP and Calvinism.

    No argument from me.

    The Centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant was not regenerated and Jesus said he marveled at the faith he "found in him". Matthew 8:10
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    How do you know that? John 3 reveals that before one can enter, or even see, the kingdom of God they must first be born from above.
     
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  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    It's highly unlikely that a Roman Centurion, a Gentile, was regenerated at the outset of Jesus' earthly ministry.

    Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
    6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.


    So why does Ezekiel 36 apply to Gentiles?
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    If the definition of dead is that men cannot cooperate with grace because they are dead like a corps then it must also be true that that corps cannot work in rebellion against God. Corpses cannot make decisions one way or another.

    Sorry cali's you don't get to have it both ways.
     
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Administrator
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    Another post that proves you have absolutely no understanding of what spiritual death is. :(
     
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