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Featured The Atonement of Christ: What did it REALLY Achieve ?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Brightfame52, Jul 22, 2021.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, but I believe purchased by the blood and saved are the same. Eph 1:14

    Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
     
    #121 Brightfame52, Sep 6, 2021
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ephesians 1:13–14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Amen!

    But I do not believe the redemption is synonymous with being saved. Instead I believe the Cross (and Resurrection) has specific implications for the lost that would not exist apart from Christ (I believe Christ is the standard by which the saved are judged and the lost condemned....that "he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Edit: I do not affirm the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, so we probably would end up talking past one another if not very careful....and there is not enough time in this thread.
     
    #122 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
    Romans 8:23, ". . . the redemption of our body.,"
     
    #123 37818, Sep 6, 2021
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well there are a many of us who do not see it as mere theory, Isaiah 53:6, Romans 5:8.

    ". . . the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
    ". . . while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
     
    #124 37818, Sep 6, 2021
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know.

    For the record, I absolute agree with Isaiah 53 and Romans 5. Both of the verses you provide are among my favorites (Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, and John chapters 1-3 are perhaps my favorite chapters).

    It is amazing that while we were sinners - enemies of God - Christ died for us. This should affect our interactions with other people when we see them sin, or feel they have wronged us, as well.

    And it is vital to understanding the Cross to know that God laid our iniquities on His Son and by His stripes we are healed. God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us. These are foundational truths.

    So we agree on those passages. I just do not believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is correct. I know it holds many truths (as all of the theories of Atonement hold many truths), and we would both affirm the same passages. But I believe the theory is flawed (I know those who hold any theory typically think of it as fact rather than theory....I've had this discussion with a cousin who teaches the Theory of Evolution as fact...so no issues at all with you holding Penal Substitution as fact.....I'd be surprised if you didn't. We all believe our beliefs are correct. That's why we hold them).
     
    #125 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I agree to an extent, but I find that I must clarify why I agree.

    To me, they are separate...
    but they go along with each other and are intertwined with one another so tightly, that they describe things that have happened for someone who has "found" favor with God, through no effort of their own.

    For example,
    I see that a person who is not saved with ever be born again.
    No one who is not foreknown, will ever be predestinated conformed to the image of His Son.
    No one who is not justified, will ever be "called" by the Spirit of God,
    No one for whom Christ died will ever be cast into the Lake of Fire, cursed by God or ever told, "I never knew you".
    No one who truly loves the God of all creation as revealed in the Scriptures, will ever risk the wrath of God.
    No one who does not believe, from the heart, and confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus, will ever partake of any of the rest.

    To be elect is to be chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world,
    To be chosen is to be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
    To be written is to be loved of God, and to be loved of God is to be saved to an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.

    In the end, everything that the Bible says that a Christian is, is all related and inseparably tied to everything else.:)


    There is no "lowest common denominator" for what makes someone saved, as they must eventually reflect everything that the Bible has to say about a Christian at some point in their lives.
     
    #126 Dave G, Sep 6, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  7. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    jon c

    See I do. In Eph 1:14 the word purchased also means saving as well as preserve, preservation. Its the word saving here Heb 10:39

    But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    Its that same word when Peter writes 1 Pet 2:9

    9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar/purchased people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
     
    #127 Brightfame52, Sep 6, 2021
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    We are purchased with a price - greater than silver and gold - with the precious blood of Christ. And we are a chosen people - a priesthood of believers. I agree with those passages

    You and I seem to have a lot in common about those who are saved. I'm glad we can unite in that.
     
    #128 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
  9. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    May God give you to understand that the purchased people are the saved people. Thats by His death Acts 20:24

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    It can very well read:

    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath saved with his own blood.
     
    #129 Brightfame52, Sep 6, 2021
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    May God give you understand that not all who disagree with you disagree with Scripture. Of course God purchased us with His own precious blood. That is nothing any Christian would deny.

    Christ lay down His life for His sheep (no man comes to Him except the Father draw him). He lay down His life for the Bride. All of this is true.

    We agree on what is true concerning His children.
    I just do not see fit to add to the Bible in order to develop a doctrine of the damned (of those who do not believe).
     
    #130 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Again, those passages we seem to agree on are the penal substitution and not theory.
     
    #131 37818, Sep 6, 2021
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Then in your evaluation what I believe is penal substitution. That's fine. I'm not hung up on labels.

    When studying theories of Atonement in seminary (granted, a Baptist seminary) it was presented as more than those passages. That is what I was working off of. That said, this was awhile back. Perhaps their definition has become obsolete anyway.
     
    #132 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    13 These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 Jn 5
     
    #133 kyredneck, Sep 6, 2021
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    3 Wherefore I make known unto you, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12
     
    #134 kyredneck, Sep 6, 2021
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    AMEN! HALELUJAH!

    11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53
     
    #135 kyredneck, Sep 6, 2021
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Probably not that case. I didn't get any formal training on the topic. What I said is according to how I understand those words and the two selected texts. I do not consider the plain teaching of God's word to be theory. Interpertations about what is said, I concur, can be regarded as theory where the concept is literally as stated. The words "penal" and "substitution" are not actually used. But then . . . .
     
    #136 37818, Sep 6, 2021
  17. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning -
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 4 am EDT (Tues) / 1 am PDT (Tue)
     
    #137 Salty, Sep 6, 2021
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The audience are for whom Christ atoned.
     
    #138 37818, Sep 6, 2021
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also do not consider the text of Scripture to be a theoretical document. God's Word is Truth, Life.

    God not only lay our iniquities on His Son, but His Son lay down His life for the sheep. He who knew no sin became sin for us. By His stripes we are healed. He bour OUR sins in His body on the Cross. He gave His life that we might live.

    This is what you call penal substitution and I say "amen!".

    To me the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement is something completely different than those passages and completely foreign to the text of Scripture. So there is no need for me to go there.

    Let's forget about labels and just rest in God's Word. No Christian can deny what you call penal substitution and remain Christian.
     
    #139 JonC, Sep 6, 2021
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  20. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    That we might Live through Him !

    If anything short of life everlasting is the result or outcome of Christ coming into the world for those He died for, then God's Purpose for Him coming has failed. Also His Love has failed.

    1 Jn 4:9

    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us[Believers or Sheep], because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    In other words, John is stating the Purpose and intent of God in sending into this world, His Only Begotten Son, it was in order that, Life everlasting would be effectually communicated unto us, and that we may live Spiritually through Him. It is similar to when Jesus said of His Sheep Jn 10:1058

    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    Now both of these scriptures have one thing in common, the word That. The word that is the greek conjunction hina:

    that, in order that, so that

    This word when used in conjunction with the subjunctive mood, is not expressing uncertainty, but Purpose, God Himself fulfilling the conditions for the intended purpose to come into fruition.

    The results therefore is that all for whom Christ came to die for, receive Life, both spiritual and eternal. Notice Jn 6:33

    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    All Christ died for will receive a New Birth, a New Life.

    This is what Jesus meant in Jn 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    The fruit is Life Eternal Jn 4:36

    And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

    The eternal life, the Spiritual Life of all those Christ came and died for, are His wages for His work.
     
    #140 Brightfame52, Sep 7, 2021
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