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The Bible Jesus May have Read.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 25, 2001.

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  1. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    If you would like to see a copy of the Septuagint (LXX) in both Greek and English, it can be found on the net at
    http://www.ccel.org/php/disp.php?authorID=brenton&bookID=lxx&page=i&view=png

    According to most Biblical Scholars, the Septuagint is the Greek version of the Bible which was written a few hundred years before Christ and was in WIDE circulation even in Judea during the time of Jesus. Greek was used as an international language by the Roman Empire and therefore it was either a high order second language or primary language even in Palestine during this time. (This is the primary reason the N.T. was written mostly in Greek with the exception of Matthew and possibly an Epistle or two written in Aramaic--not Arabic.)
    Because of the comparisons between many New Testament writers, and some of the quotations from Jesus, it is clear that this book was obviously the standard Bible of the time and era.

    By the way, many other old documents -- not necessarily Biblical, but most related in one way or another to religion and Christianity are posted at www.ccel.org. If you are a researcher, this is an invaluable site for ancient materials.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #1 Phillip, Nov 25, 2001
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Phillip,

    How could you spread such heresy? Everyone knows that Jesus read the KJV 1611 only. ;)

    Joseph Botwinick :D
     
    #2 Joseph_Botwinick, Nov 25, 2001
  3. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Botwinick:
    Phillip,

    How could you spread such heresy? Everyone knows that Jesus read the KJV 1611 only. ;)

    Joseph Botwinick :D    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Funny, that is exactly what my pastor told me tonight when we were talking about it. He too had a BIG grin on his face.

    We were discussing what I thought were two discrepencies in the new ESV from his sermon this morning and after doing a computer search found out the ESV was clearer (and more accurate in today's language) than the KJV---and this was based on the Byzantine Text.

    [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
    #3 Phillip, Nov 26, 2001
  4. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

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    What's the real story behind the "LXX"? Why would the Jews who considered Gentiles nothing more than dogs, willingly forsake their heritage, the Hebrew language, for a Gentile language into which would be translated the holiest possession of all, their Bible? Such a supposition is as insane as it is absurd.

    The "LXX" is a figment of someone's imagination.

    The Answer Book by Dr. Samuel Gipp
     
    #4 Psalm145 3, Nov 26, 2001
  5. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    What's the real story behind the "LXX"? Why would the Jews who considered Gentiles nothing more than dogs, willingly forsake their heritage, the Hebrew language, for a Gentile language into which would be translated the holiest possession of all, their Bible? Such a supposition is as insane as it is absurd.

    The "LXX" is a figment of someone's imagination.

    The Answer Book by Dr. Samuel Gipp    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Maybe because a large majority of the Jews at that time had forgotten their Hebrew and spoke Hellenistic Greek?
     
    #5 Chris Temple, Nov 26, 2001
  6. Pioneer

    Pioneer Guest

    There are a couple of things that bring the Septuagint into question:

    #1 - The Septuagint was written in classical Greek while the New Testament was written in Koine Greek. Classical Greek was considered a dead language and was used mainly by the philosophers of that day. Koine Greek was the language of the common people.

    #2 - The earliest copy of the Septuagint is found in Origen's Hexapla (the 5th column of his 6 column Bible) which is around 250 AD. Origen was heretic in the first degree and evidence shows that he may have wrote the Septuagint himself.

    Bro. Steve Smith
     
    #6 Pioneer, Nov 26, 2001
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Steve,

    The reason the LXX was written in classical Greek because it was translated during the classical period. By your date (250AD) no one would have translated it into classical Greek. The only reason it is in classical Greek is because it is from the BC period. On your second point, there is ample evidence, presented in another thread, for the existence of the LXX during pre-apostolic times. If you study the research on this, the fallacy of your statements will become immediately obvious.
     
    #7 Pastor Larry, Nov 26, 2001
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    &gt;&gt;This is the primary reason the N.T. was written mostly in Greek with the exception of Matthew and possibly an Epistle or two written in Aramaic--not Arabic.)&gt;&gt;

    I keep hearing that the Book of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic but have never seen any evidience?

    Can anyone give any documentation?


    Thanks
    HankD
     
    #8 HankD, Nov 26, 2001
  9. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Pastor Larry pointed out some excellent evidence regarding the LXX in "KJV vs. Modern Version - II" if you will read the debate discussing the Septuagint in that thread before it was closed.

    A MAJOR point is that there is just too much coincidence to have specific wording so much by New Testament authors.

    I'll start another debate among the same people who don't believe in the LXX with this statement: No only was there a Greek version, but there was also at least two or three manuscript streams available in Hebrew at the time the Septuagint was written. Partial proof of this can be found in the dead-sea scrolls. :D
     
    #9 Phillip, Nov 26, 2001
  10. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    Why would the Jews who considered Gentiles nothing more than dogs, willingly forsake their heritage, the Hebrew language, for a Gentile language into which would be translated the holiest possession of all, their Bible? Such a supposition is as insane as it is absurd.

    The "LXX" is a figment of someone's imagination.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Why was the New Testament written in Greek? It is about the Jewish Messiah. Is it also a figment of our imaginations?
     
    #10 Phillip, Nov 26, 2001
  11. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Come one guys -n- gals were here to discuss this---let's get to discussin. I say there was a Septuagint and I say Jesus used it and I say it was written well before his birth in Greek. You've given reasons why not, give me some proof. In a court of law the lack of evidence is proof of nothing.

    I claim that my proof is in the number of quotes from the New Testament Greek manuscripts that match up too well with the LXX Greek. I also claim as proof that scholars have pretty much proven that Greek was the REQUIRED tongue of the Hebrews many of which were scattered as the diaspora in Alexandria where the LXX was probably written. Historical evidence also shows that Greek was required and used heavily in Palestine as either a strong second language if not a first language. This is evidenced by the manuscripts of the New Testament which would have been in Hebrew otherwise. Greek was definitely used by most of the priests who were under the direct supervision (although there were rebellions) of Caesar and Roman law required Greek to provide international trade and commerce. The LXX was DEFINITELY used by the diaspora Jews who had lost their native tongue entirely to Greek and THIS IS historical.
     
    #11 Phillip, Nov 26, 2001
  12. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phillip:
    [QB]Come one guys -n- gals were here to discuss this---let's get to discussin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Perhaps there's nothing to debate?? ;)
     
    #12 Chris Temple, Nov 27, 2001
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Philip, Not too many people disagree with you. If you have noticed the arguments posted here, no one gives anything worth arguing about. Quite frankly, I was shocked that Thomas appears to deny the existence of the LXX in pre-apostolic times (although he never really clarified exactly what his position was). The only people I know of that seriously hold that position are Ruckman and Gipp ... which should say everything you need to know about that position.
     
    #13 Pastor Larry, Nov 27, 2001
  14. DocCas

    DocCas New Member

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    Greetings from Cabo San Lucas, Baja California, Sud. :D

    Larry, please don't misrepresent me or my position again. I have posted my position several times. If you are still confused about it, go back to the other thread where I posted it at least three times.

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
    #14 DocCas, Nov 27, 2001
  15. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    Quite frankly, I was shocked that Thomas appears to deny the existence of the LXX in pre-apostolic times (although he never really clarified exactly what his position was)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Quite frankly, I read the posts I could find and I cannot see that your statement is out of line because the whole argument was the existence of a Greek document during pre-apostolic times which he said there was no manuscript proof for and also he made light that we called it the LXX. So, I don't know how your statement is wrong Pastor Larry, maybe I'm reading the posts wrong and have to have something explained to me in one syllible words!?

    However, I guess if you are wrong then there is no argument to my debate!!!! :D

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]
     
    #15 Phillip, Nov 27, 2001
  16. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Pastor Larry, I cannot get to the book that was linked posted that was against the Septuagint, obviously it takes some sort of special subscription or something, but I could not even get into the home index page.
    The Answer Book by Dr. Samuel Gipp
    Anyway, do you know much about Dr. Samuel Gipp and what his background is? This may be a dumb question, but I have never studied any of his material. :confused:
     
    #16 Phillip, Nov 27, 2001
  17. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins New Member

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    Phillip:

    Dr. Sam Gipp is one of the strongest defenders of The KJV on this planet today.

    He is a truth-seeker and, unashemedly, exposes the modern versions for what they are....watered down pervions of God's pur word, the KJV.

    He is head of a ministry called "A friend to Churches" and you can read all about him at www.biblebelievers.com This organization uses as it's motto, Proverbs 27:17 "A man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend".

    Dr Gipp, to my knowledge, refrains from attacking non-KJV believers directly but goes right to the historical data to defend the preservation of scripture in the KJV.

    For over 40 years He was a Pastor. He is an evangelist and a favourite speaker at Bible conferences.

    Today he is an author of some of the best books available on the topic of the "Preservation"of scripture. They are:

    - The Answer Book - This book contains the answers to 62 commonly asked questions that folks who believe anything with the word "Bible" is God's word will ask of the KJV only position.

    - An Understandable History of the Bible - This book is an easy read and contains documented proof that the Word of God has been under attack since the Garden of Eden and most recently by the Catholic Church in an effort to weaken and destroy the very foundations of our Baptist faith.

    In addition, he is the author of:

    - Apractical and Theological study of (1) The gospel of John and (2) The Book of Acts.
    - Living with Pain
    - Life after Y2K
    - How to Minister to Youth

    Dr Gipp has been an inspiration to myself and all who have, long-ago, reached the only logical conclusion, basic on historical factual evidence, that the KJV is the pure, preserved Word of God.

    All of his books can be ordered from the above web site which will also give you more information on Dr Gipp.

    God Bless

    Alex
     
    #17 Alex Mullins, Nov 28, 2001
  18. Alex Mullins

    Alex Mullins New Member

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    Phillip:

    Dr. Sam Gipp is one of the strongest defenders of The KJV on this planet today.

    He is a truth-seeker and, unashemedly, exposes the modern versions for what they are....watered down pervions of God's pure word, the KJV.

    He is head of a ministry called "A friend to Churches" and you can read all about him at www.biblebelievers.com This organization uses as it's motto, Proverbs 27:17 "A man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend".

    Dr Gipp, to my knowledge, refrains from attacking non-KJV believers directly but goes right to the historical data to defend the preservation of scripture in the KJV.

    For over 40 years He was a Pastor and Youth Pastor. He is an evangelist and a favourite speaker at Bible conferences.

    Today he is an author of some of the best books available on the topic of the "Preservation of scripture." They are:

    - The Answer Book - This book contains the answers to 62 commonly asked questions that folks who believe anything with the word "Bible" as being God's word, will ask of the KJV only position in an effort to destroy the idea that God did, in fact, preserve His word.

    - An Understandable History of the Bible - This book is an easy read and contains documented proof that the Word of God has been under attack since the Garden of Eden, most recently by the Catholic Church and the humanist movement,in an effort to weaken and destroy the very foundations of our Baptist faith.

    In addition, he is the author of:

    - A Practical and Theological study of (1) The gospel of John and (2) The Book of Acts.
    - Living with Pain
    - Life after Y2K
    - How to Minister to Youth

    Dr Gipp has been an inspiration to myself and all who have, long-ago, reached the only logical conclusion, based on historical factual evidence, that the KJV is the pure, preserved Word of God.

    All of his books can be ordered from the above web site which will also give you more information on Dr Gipp.

    God Bless

    Alex
     
    #18 Alex Mullins, Nov 28, 2001
  19. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Gipp is very loose with the facts. His arguments are founded more in hyperbole then in solid factual evidence and reality. I do not know much about his background or where he came from. I have read parts of the answer book and at times have found myself laughing out loud at some of the stuff he says and at other times angry because of his blatant misrepresentation. If you read his section on the LXX, you will see a representative sample of his approach to dealing with problems.


    Gipp is published by Chick tracts, which tells us everything we need to know.
     
    #19 Pastor Larry, Nov 28, 2001
  20. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ah, yes, rings a bell.

    Thank you Alex for the information. I will research what you have given, but I must say I have to agree with Pastor Larry because when he mentioned Chick publications I remembered The Answer Book, etc.

    Pastor Larry, for you: my pastor made an interesting remark with which I will have to agree with and it is my opinion, but unless you say otherwise I think you would too. (You two seem a lot alike doctrinally) He said that "It is our responsibility to review every single manuscript found and s**** of papyrus, etc. for the purpose of making absolutely certain that we maintain the truth. In other words, we should not be afraid of what we will find because none of the MV's or the KJV have changed doctrine one iota. AND, because there are some errors in the KJV (and all MV's) that is behooves us to search for ancient manuscripts and have experts study them down to the letter in an effort to keep as close to the original as possible (which means also study to try to find out what (even if pieced together from many manuscripts) is the closest to the original.) etc. etc. I may not be quoting him exactly and it may not sound quite right, but I think you know what I am trying to say here. Doctrine has not been changed by the NASB, the NIV, etc. We do realize, and I would like to know if you agree--that the Living Bible (as a paraphrase) may be dangerous at certain spots if not used carefully---so if you want to use it for the easy reading it probably should be compared to one of the translations.

    Also, Pastor Larry, can you give me some background of the "Good News for Modern Man" that showed up when I was a youngster in church? The reason I asked is that when I was just learning to read (first grade/second grade) I could not understand the KJV and when I was handed a GNMN, I never listed to the pastor because I was literally ABSORBED into a Bible text that I could understand at that age. I don't know its history, was it a translation? Isn't the ESV also coming from the same company?
     
    #20 Phillip, Nov 28, 2001
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