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What part of free will makes God weak or ineffective?

It is man that is weak and ineffective, not God.

If a lost person has no choice when it comes to salvation, then why are they punished when they are not even offered it?

My Lord is not weak and ineffective, nor is He cruel and unjust.

John

 

Wait, that makes too much sense. If you cannot employ big words to explain it you must be wrong

 

How so? You can offer free things (like salvation) to everyone, but only a few will accept it. Just because everyone doesnt accept salvation doesnt mean it is not offered to everyone.

John

 

Yes, and even the Bible says the same thing :thumbs::thumbs:

John

 

Yessir, it takes both God's call and man's response to be the elect.

Good point

John

 

Forest, excuse me here for asking an obvious question.

BUT, IF YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND ABOUT WHO GOD CALLS, THEN WHY DID YOU EVEN ASK THE QUESTION?????

Ahhhh, yes, I see, you have an agenda.

Instead of spending your time converting lost people to Christ, you'd rather spend your time converting regular Christians to Calvinists.

But then, God will save the lost if He wants to, so why waste time trying to do God's job for Him?

Give me a break.

John

 

Many (a lot) = called
Few (not a lot) = chosen

calvinists : "they are one in the same".

:laugh:

 

I am going to say this nicely so that the mods dont give me an infraction.

But please, if you are going to dispute a biblical truth that I post, please don't reply with an untruth, and try to explain it with a verse you take out of context.

It doesnt become you

John

 

So you would go to the lost with the message that Jesus died for everyone but without the conviction that His death actually accomplished salvation for those that should believe. So in other words, your saying we should proclaim a redemption that does not redeem, a propitiation that did not propitiate, a reconciliation that did not reconcile, and an atonement that did not atone?

 

Take 5 LOL! ....also Forest is not a Calvinist.

 

You've got the same problem. God effectually paid the price of sin and death for His "elect", yet they still sin and die. What, was His payment insufficient?

 

I think it's useful here to recognize that there are two kinds of calls in play here.

One is a general call which may be resisted.
The other is the effectual call which his elect to which his elect will hear and respond.

Many will hear the gospel, which will include a call to all who hear to repent and believe.

Acts 16:14, for example, where Luke writes that God opened Lydia's heart so that she could respond to Paul's words.

This explains "many are called but few are chosen."

It also explains why Paul said that, without fail, those whom the Spirit calls are justified. It also explains why believers are "The Called."

 

You can't take a single verse of scripture to contradict many. The scriptures repeatedly show God calling men, but men refuse.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

God called these men, but they would not come. It doesn't say they "could not" come, it says "would not".

Luk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

These men were called, but they all made excuses.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;


These men were called, but they refused. Also note in vs. 23 that a man must first repent and "turn" at God's reproof, and afterward receives the Spirit.

Isa 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

These men were called, but did not answer and refused to hear God, therefore he gave them over to be slaughtered. Notice the scripture says these men did "choose" that wherein God delighted not.

So, the scriptures do not say that everyone who is called is predestined and justified. However, all those who are predestined and are justified were called. HUGE difference.

 

Here are some verses which contain general calls:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;

Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


That call can be, and most always is, resisted, without the enabling of the Holy Spirit.

 

A general call to repent to those who cannot repent do to you not enabling them, nor could they since they were not atoned for is catamount to the greatest deception in history.

God has said to us "let us reason together". Based on the above God would have to be less than honest

 

LOL..... we are not talking physical death.....why are you?

 

Ironic...you left off sin (which produced death). You sin still. You die. Christ atoned for both. His work not sufficient?

 

But I can say with all confidence that Christ died for sinners to restore them to God; if you believe on Him, you are saved and can know that He died for you. Then we as Christian believers have a message worth proclaiming & our hearers have a gospel worth believing. :jesus::thumbs:

 

If it gets me saved its plenty sufficient, dont you agree?

 

My PC isnt working right....wants to reset & shutdown..... I think I will give it the opportunity ....good night.:laugh: