The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

That Canon IX, vintage St. James, isn’t it? :thumbs:

Have you actually read the entire Council of Trent? Here’s some of my favorites:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

 

That Canon IX, vintage St. James, isn’t it?

Have you actually read the entire Council of Trent? Here’s some of my favorites:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

 

Hmm, my last two attempts to post have disappeared.:BangHead:

 

MrTumnus

After I posted this...

You said...

Because that is what Gods word is teaching us in that passage, and all the others that have been posted that teach the same thing. God is clear that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. God specifically tells us that if we add works to it, we turn it into a false gospel.

(Doing good. Being good. Doing good works, etc)

Faith alone

Faith alone

Faith alone.

If we add any "doing" or "being good" to the gospel, God tells us we will not be justified...

You again...

It doesnt have to. There is all the other passages, along with this one that make the "alone" part so crystal clear.

Little babies are not invloved in our discussion at all. They are completly irrelavent to this discussion. Concerning little babies, the Creator of Heaven and eath will do what is right.

You said...

And I said...

And you said...

No, it is a lie that we must have acceptable works aded to our faith to be justified.

God grants us the gift of faith. And it is faith in Christ ALONE that causes us to be justified in God sight. Faith alone.

You said...

And I reponded...

And you now say...

When someone is born again, they are justified through faith alone. They dont have to cast all sin out of their life (as if they could) or promise God they will be really really good from now on. They are justified in Gods eyes because at the moment of saving Faith alone, Christs rightiousness in imputed to them. For the rest of their life God will reckon Christs sinlessness to that christian.

Consquently, from that moment on the Holy Spirit will be responsible for ministering the life of Jesus Christ in and through that new born child of God. Their life witll continue to change for the better for the rest of their earthly life. But that has nothing to do with them being saved, or staying saved. The person offered nothing but faith alone, for that is all God will accept. The new life is simply evidence that a "new creation" has come into being.

It is impossible for that new life to not become obvious. If someone says that have become a christian, but nothng is changing...day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year...nothing is changing...that that is evidence that no new birth has taken place.

You probably wont, but go ahead.

Whoa!

Mr Tumnus...I'm proud of you. I do believe you are GETTING it!

Its not an issue. They will accumulate accordingly...just like a baby will grow and grow in due time.

Mike

 

Constantine organised Catholicism?:laugh: You need to learn some history.

 

Alive in Christ,

I had said...

To which you replied...

Which of those verses exactly says we are justified by faith ALONE? None that I can see. (Here's a hint: when you consider Romans 3:28 in its context you'll realize that "deeds of the law" does NOT equal all "works", particularly the works of love that follow after one is initially united to Christ)

Sorry, but to the contrary God disagrees with "sola fide", because in James it clearly states:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24

And the "iceberg" always melts in the light of the whole counsel of God's truth.

 

Sorry for the long duplicate post, but last night things stopped showing up, and now I can't edit it.:tonofbricks:

 

Truthfully I have come to the conclusion that when Catholics/Protestants speak about salvation, they don’t always mean the same thing. For example, the SBC Statement of Faith says this:

"In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification."

I asked a Southern Baptist minister one time – how come you guys say you’ve been “saved” when you actually mean you’ve been regenerated and justified? Because I don’t think you mean you’ve been sanctified and glorified, do you? He said no, he meant regenerated and justified, but that was too hard to say.

When Catholics speak of salvation, they are indeed speaking about the broadest sense. All the components. We are truly saved when we are not only born again and justified, but sanctified and glorified.

Christ and the cross are the source of all grace. The question becomes – how is grace applied? Is it a one-time event? Scripture would say no. Do we grow in grace? Are there things we can do to grow in grace? Scripture says yes. To believe there is nothing that we do in the administering of grace is not Scriptural. Is this "meriting" grace? Not in the sense that we deserve grace to be available. Yes in the sense that we by our actions can cause it to be applied and increased.

2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(There are many of these greetings in Scripture. Why pretend you believe you can request grace for someone if you believe you really can’t?)

1 Peter 4:10 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
(What happens if people fail to heed this command? No impact? Or are we really to "faithfully administer grace"?)

2 Corinthians 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
(Can someone pray for another’s perfection without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
(Can someone pray for someone to receive the Holy Spirit without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Colossians 1 9:10 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
(You can pray for someone to be filled with knowledge and understanding, without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
(You can pray for someone’s heart to be enlightened without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 3 14:19 For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
(Which “glorious riches” are we speaking of other than grace? Is being “filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” anything other than grace?)

James 4 6:10 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
(Yes, grace can definitely be increased by something we do).


Luke 22 39:46 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. "Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."
(How does prayer prevent us from falling into temptation if not by pouring forth grace?)

 

Wouldn't it be nice if we were looking at all of God's word? Or even all of the Council of Trent?

The Catholic church does not deny justification by faith. It denies justification by faith "alone". Big difference. Again, if the only way to be justified were truly by faith "alone" infants would be doomed to hell, or else one must profess they do not need a Savior.

Regarding Baptism, for adults a pre-requisite is indeed faith. We simply are not justified by faith "alone". Catholics would simply say that Jesus does not command us to do empty rituals void of grace just "for show". He was somewhat against that concept, remember? The Bible says that we are baptized “into Christ”. Can one really be justified without being in Christ?

And just FYI – baptism does not have to be performed by a priest. Anyone can baptize somebody. Perfectly valid.

I actually heard kind of a cute story about that on a Catholic radio show one day. The caller said she had been taking her 4-year old niece with her to Mass, where the majority of infant baptisms occur these days. One night she was taking a bath and took a cup of water and poured it over her head and said "I baptize ME in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The woman wanted to know if it was a valid baptism. The response was -- most likely -- yes. Jesus did say not to prevent the little children from coming to Him.

 

Another very good post, particularly contrasting the ways different groups of Christians (in this case Baptists and Catholics) talk about "salvation" (ie "been saved" etc.)

 

Actually read to understand what is actually said. Their statement in this section about faith alone is predicated by "nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification" So James said that "Faith without works are dead" Works are a key element. Catholics view this as maintenance of their Faith and we view it as a result of Faith. Justification will not land on either Catholics or Protestants if not resultant on some issue of works. In other words I can't say I believe and then be Justified when my life is devoid of righteousness. Ie. fornication, idolatry, murder, ect... We would say (OSAS) you were never saved. Catholics are saying something similar here. You cant say I believe and not repent and change your life. No justification in this circumstance. BTW I'll get to you on post 37.

 

No they do not! To a Roman Catholic they must pay for some of their sins. For example, that is what purgatory/indulgence does. Either Christ paid for them all, or not. To a Catholic, He did not. If Christ paid for all of our sins, then why do the Catholic go to purgatory to pay for them there? It is obvious why. To a Roman Catholic, Christ did not pay for all of their sins.

The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

From a Catholic Bible

Romans 3:24-25 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,

1John 4:10 In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.

I looked at the vatican website, but it appears the Vatican II council book was not put into web form. Or I have not found it, yet.
Here is a link to Vatican of another document showing people must expiate their own sins.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p..._apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."


And what is expiation? Read it from the Catholic Dictionary.

EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.

 

Then you agree, it is by faith plus works. Enough said, lets move on.

 

That would be a negitive Sir. To a Roman Catholic, to be justified it is by faith plus works. For example they must go to Mass every Sunday otherwise they commit a mortal sin and is in grave danger of ending up in hell if they die before confession on Tuesday night.

 

mrtumnas. wow you have really posted some interesting stuff and it makes sense. Lately I've been listening to tapes from Scott Hahn, and Jeff Cavins both former protestant pastors who are now fully Catholic. They explain this better then anyone I've ever heard. I find it interesting how God is using them and more like them to rebuild His Church. More and more Catholics are falling in love with Scriptures many for the first time through their teachings.

 

God help us. :tear:

 

Evidence sir.

 

I want to find the section for this quote. Which book of the II Vatican council are you quoting from or are you quoting from the Catechism?