The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

Coucil of Trent

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"


Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 4 Session 7.
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."




It is pretty simple. Sorry to hear you have a hard time understanding the Theology of Rome. Justify, Sanctification, and Grace have totally different meanings to how the Protestant defines them. So I do my best to simplify what they are saying.
To receive the grace from the sacraments one must do works to get it. For example, 'There is no salvation outside the Church'. Here, Rome is saying you must join the Church to get justified. Then you need to do good works and expiate your sins because faith in Jesus ALONE does not absolve all of your sins.......I have to go now.

 

thats not the evidence I was looking for. Your statement about mass and mortal sin and hell if no confession by tuesday. These statements as are most proclimations in the council of Trent are directed at Protestants and non catholics.

 

Gee whiz dude.

Well I can not find a book version of the Vatican II on the web.
What I have found is a link at the Vatican website that says pretty much the same thing.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p..._apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death"

To a Roman Catholic, Jesus DID NOT pay for ALL of their sins. They must work some of it off.

 

Question – are you equating works of the law to be the same as works of grace? Keeping the OT law as opposed to responding to the nudge of grace? Do you believe there is no difference between the two?

If you will notice when James actually does use the term “faith alone” to explain how important deeds are – he isn’t talking about “works of the law”, or keeping the OT law. The example he gives is providing food and clothing for someone who is in need. Responding to the call of grace and showing our faith by what we do. Not "works of the law".

 

Evidently not or we wouldn't be talking about it.

Nor would James contradict it.

 

The Creator of Heaven and earth will do what is right by us all, not just babies.:thumbs:

But they are absolutely relevant to our discussion. Now you are not only adding “alone” to the text, you’re adding “regarding adults only”. Either salvation is limited by grace through “faith alone” or it isn’t.

My conclusion would be it isn't. Grace is not limited to "faith alone" as its only vehicle. Grace is what saves us -- the presence of Christ living within us is our justification.

 

Christ ALONE I can buy just fine. It’s the thought that our faith is what justifies us instead of God’s grace, and the only vehicle for God’s grace is “faith alone” or that faith is the only response to grace that is necessary that I don’t quite agree with. The presence of grace, or Christ living within us being what justifies us -- Christ alone -- :thumbs:

 

First of all, you are working under an assumption of OSAS, which isn’t a concept even the entire Baptist world accepts I believe?

Second – you don’t think it’s possible to cast all sin from your life? Whatever happened to “I can do everything through him who gives me strength”? A battle – for sure. A lifelong battle – you bet. But a battle that through the power of the Holy Spirit cannot be won – not at all.

Jesus commanded us to "Be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect". Do you think he didn't mean it?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

We are now speaking of the ‘sanctification’ component of salvation rather than justification I believe. The Holy Spirit works in us, with the cooperation of our free will and intellect. We continually surrender. We continually seek more grace. We continually resist temptation. This is participatory. We are commanded to resist evil and to submit ourselves to God, to learn to control ourselves and to live a holy life.

The reason that nothing happens to some is not necessarily that they did not receive the gift. It can also be that they have stuffed it in a back closet and aren’t choosing to use it. They are the man who received one talent and buried it in the ground.

Also, what about the person who has lots of fruit and new growth…..for a while? And then the change and growth stops. Was that person ever really reborn?

 

Oh ye of little faith.:laugh:

This seems to then boil down to: No Works = No Faith = No Salvation.

 

Good answer – how many are not the point. That’s what I tell people when they ask how many works are necessary for salvation. Non-issue. Just that you are responding to grace.

 

Thank you. I do believe that is where much (not all) of the confusion lies. It seems to me that in general, Protestants focus more on the regeneration and justification piece. Catholics tend to accept that and focus more on the sanctification piece. What are perceived as being ‘works’ for justification are more rightly seen as cooperation with grace for sanctification.

 

“Maintenance” is an interesting way to view it. Maybe something like ‘soil maintenance’. Faith needs good soil to grow deep roots so that when the time of testing comes you do not fall away. Cooperation with sanctification is tilling the soil.

I’ll ask you too. What if your life shows great fruit and works for a significant period of time (years even) but you eventually revert back to a life of great sin. Was that person ever saved?

 

Nope, not our faith. Not our works. Just God's grace.

 

You need a better understanding of mortal sin. It must be a knowing, willing act which totally rejects God. Throws him out of your life by an act of free will. It’s a sin of grave nature, you understand it’s a sin of grave nature that is offensive to God, and you choose to do it.

Missing Mass on Sunday may indeed be a mortal sin. May not be. Murder may be a mortal sin. May not be.

Dying before confession is not so much of a worry as being truly penitent before dying.

 

Thanks! I’ve listened/read much of Scott Hahn and I’ve heard a little of Jeff Cavins. I think Catholics have always been in love with Scripture – the Mass is soaked through with it. But I do think that at least from what I’ve read of Hahn many of the pieces are fitting better for people between Scripture and the faith they love, especially in light of the new covenant being the fulfillment of the old. He and others like him have been a real blessing the last few years.

 

Not hardly cloistered. 50 years now, with Catholic school too. And I’ll trump your two deacons with my spouse who was a principal of a Catholic school for a number of years, 3 nun aunts and a cousin priest.

But do your deacon friends confirm your opinion that Catholics worship Mary? Is that what they tell you? Do you tell them you think they do?

You do realize that this prayer is from the Middle Ages, correct? Today it would undoubtedly be written quite differently. My favorite history teacher who I happen to be married to says that the biggest mistake one can make in judging a person from history is to bring them and their actions into the context of today. You have to understand the context in which their actions occurred.

Unfortunately, English is not a dead language. Things written centuries ago don’t always come across with the same intent. Example – “Don we now our gay apparel” doesn’t quite have the same meaning anymore, due to the change in meaning of the word 'gay'.

Such it is with words like prayer, worship, praise. This prayer is from a time period where there were kings (your worship), lords, ladies. Pray literally meant (and still primarily does) to request something independent of any sort of Divine. “I pray thee Lord, grant my request” – to whatever royalty you may be conversing with.

Bringing a prayer like this out of the context of its time and the context of what the faith teaches it about Mary to judge it is a mistake if you sincerely wish to understand its purpose.

For Catholics, it is not an either/or regarding Mary or Jesus or any of the saints. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ. He is God, who is worshipped. But when we approach God the judge and Jesus the mediator in the New Jerusalem, it is knowing we also approach the angels and saints. “Praying” to Mary is requesting her intercessory prayer to her Son. It is not a replacement for praying to Christ. It is praying with Mary to Christ.

John Paul II is correct -- Mary is the path that leads to Christ. Walking her journey as the first of the redeemed is the path we follow TO Christ. Imitation of her faith – “be it done unto me according to your word” should be our walk as well.

 

The American flag is material, but it is venerated, respected, and even given allegiance on its own (I pledge allegiance TO THE FLAG and the country….). Of course if it’s destroyed what it represents still stands. Just as a statue or icon can be venerated, respected, honored understanding what it represents. Nowhere near worship in either case.

Regarding the Rosary, you are aware that the above is considered private revelation and not part of the deposit of the faith, correct? For all of the claims that Protestants make that Catholics focus on Mary – the two official prayers of the church – the Mass and the Divine Office barely mention her. 99% focused on Christ, the Trinity, and worship thereof. Just thought I would point that out. One can be a fully faithful Catholic without ever saying a Rosary or the Salve Regina if they so choose. No problem at all.

The rosary is indeed a very popular private prayer. Most who do not know it focus on the repetitions of the “Hail Mary”. Those who do know it understand the primary focus is on the meditation of the mysteries of the life of Christ associated with each decade. I guess my first question is – if this were not the rosary but the word ‘prayer’ were substituted, which of those would you have problems with. For example – “whoever should faithfully pray shall receive special graces” -- problem or not?

 

Perhaps the confusion here lies in what payment for our sins actually means. Jesus alone could remove the eternal punishment for our sins – spiritual death. We are forgiven. The guilty verdict which sentenced us to eternal death is gone. He has paid the debt in full.

This still does not mean the consequences of sin in the 'here and now' are gone, correct? And while eternal punishment is indeed removed, earthly or temporary punishment is another story. The idea that we suffer no temporal consequences for our sins is not supported by either scripture or life. I get drunk and wreck my car and end up paralyzed – Jesus will certainly forgive. Doesn’t mean I get up and walk. Eternal punishment removed. Temporary punishment remains. Eternal punishment – eternal spiritual death was removed by Christ. Temporal punishment – literal physical death remains. Temporal punishment – women still bear children in pain. These things do not go away.

Even though our sins have been forgiven, God still disciplines us. Punishes, chastises, purifies, disciplines. It is called the process of sanctification – our becoming righteous men made perfect.

We can approach God with a humble heart ourselves – seeking his cleansing fire. Making reparation to those we have harmed.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God

Luke 19:8-10 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Acts: 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.


Matthew 5:23-24 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Or, we can attempt to ignore and avoid this truth, but rest in the assurance that God will assure that this occurs.

Matthew 5:25-26
"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Hebrews 12 4:11 “ In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”


Therefore, it is indeed “a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death"

 

MrTumnus...

I posted this...

And you said...

Thats that old deceptive nonsense that the Church or Rome uses to dupe her victims. Its completly irelavent how the works are done or what they are called. What When the New Testament scriptures speak of "works of the law" they are referring to any form "works". "being holy", "being good", "doing good", etc etc etc...for any motivation at all.

If it is added to what is required for justification, it becomes a false non-saving gospel.

Either one. Makes no difference

 

Mrtumnus,

There is no contradiction between James and Paul in the least. The Church of Rome tells its victims that in order to maintain their false gosel.

James is discussing justification in an entirely different context than what is required to be justified eternally beore God.

Open your eyes, Mrtumnus! Dont let them do this to you. Dont be one of Romes victims. There is too much at stake.

Mike