The certainty of God's Foreknowledge?

Hey Outsider,

I will need to get to your post a little later this evening. I usually don't have the time at work to put a reply together of length. I do notice a few things though. Concerning whether or not classic Predestination is "polished" double-predestination we will need to agree to disagree brother. I think Spoul's explaination concerning the symmetry is sufficent show the difference between double-predestination and classic reformed theology. If you disagree, well, then you disagree.

You say you agree that God foreknew you (which is more than just mere knowledge, it is active, He set his love on you) but did not predestine you? We cannot escape from Romans (nor would we want to) the order, or what some have styled, the golden chain of redemption: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorifed." Romans 8:29-30

It is not "what" He foreknew, but whom. It is not "what" he predestinated, but whom. He not only fore-knew you, if you be in Christ, but also predestined you. And this He did before the world began.

There is a world of difference between a man being obdedient to God and a man, or group, or nation, or whatever, doing quite freely and of their own volition and desire, even if it be utter wickedness, the exact and precise will of God. One of the clearest examples of this is the murder of Jesus. "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" Acts 2:23

They acted according to their own voliation and in the greatest wickedness of all, perfectly accomplishing the determinate counsel, and accoding to, the foreknowledge of God. This is how the wicked can also be included in the predestination of God.

I can't help but see a contradiction in this statement. With one hand you say election is categorical and not individual, a people. And then you readily admit that obviously individuals make up the people and does foreknow each one of them and predestinates them. I fail to see how this makes any sense other than to try to fit categorical election into individual foreknowledge and predestination.

Do you not say that each one of us is justified before God by the blood of Jesus Christ? "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth." Romans 8:33 How can the elect here be a category only and not also inviduals?

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" Col 3:12

How is this only addressed to a category and not to each one of the Church to which it was written and to us?

And do not miss the force of this following Scripture my dear brother, because you have already know that God's foreknowledge is of individuals:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:2

We are elect according to, and therefore it is before election, the foreknowledge of God the Father. I do say that this is very high knowledge to me. When I contemplate that the Lord in infinate and eternal, then sequences of time get blury for me. What I mean is, God's Mind in infinite. His very nature and being is without beginning and without end. When He foreknows, He must foreknow infinately and eternally. And so must election be.

But I accept the teaching of this Scripture, who calls those Christians scattered "throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," elect, or chosen, according to His foreknowledge. God's election of me meant my salvation by His grace, which would be through faith in Jesus Christ and sanctification of the Holy Spirit. This was given to me, my brother, and all who are in Christ Jesus before the world began.

"Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" 2 Tim 1:8-10

Awesome Scripture. He saves. He calls. His purpose. His grace. Freely given in Christ Jesus before the world began, but now is unveiled and made known by the appearing of Jesus Christ and brought this to light by His death and ressurection from the dead, abolishing death and bringing in immortality. Halleujah!

Edit: hahaha! I guess I did get to it!

 

Excellent question. I look forward to the responses...

edited...I see RB's response. I look forward to other responses to this question, too.

 

RB,
It does my heart good to discuss scripture with you. You are very knowledgable and I feel the Spirit of love in your words. Things you have mentioned are good and will not go unstudied.
I would like to address a few points and maybe get you to look at something for me.

If I woke up one morning and decided I was going to treat my employees to a bonus, I have every right to do so. I have purposed it in myself to freely give it. Lets say I set standards for them in order to recieve this gift. Lets say they have to wear something blue. If they wear something blue, they recieve this bonus. This is the election. I have elected a people (those that wear blue) to recieve my gift. Now, nobody at my work owns anything blue, so I go out and purchase them all a blue shirt and give it to them and tell them it is theirs to do whatever they wish. I have elected, purposed and provided everything for them. I have worked it all according to my will and the only way to recieve this bonus is for them to wear what I have provided them. This is how I view election. Not that some of my employees were elected to recieve the bonus, but that the election was for those that wear the blue shirt (Categorical). Those that wear the shirt are predestined to recieve the bonus (Individuals) because I have willed it in myself. It pleases me to do this.

Yes, I still see this categorically and individually. Who can lay anything against the body of believers? It is God that justifies you, not man. No matter how bad you have been or no matter who you are, Christ died for you. God gave His Son to save them that believe.

As I stated before, I place election first. He elected the way in which people might be saved. Then predestines them to be with Him.
I do believe He knows who will and who won't. He has all knowledge. It is beyond my understanding too. I just trust Him.
Consider this:
Eph 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us (Believers) with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us (Those that believe) in him before the foundation of the world, that we (Believers) should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us (After we believed) unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us (Believers) accepted in the beloved.
Here Paul is writting to the church. A body of believers. He is not writting to any particular individual, but categorically to all those in Ephesus that believe. I understand that God, through His foreknowledge, knows them that will believe, but He doesn't foreordain them to believe. He foreordains those that do (And will) believe, to be saved from His wrath to come and be with Him forever.

Now, if you would, I would really like for you to look at a few scriptures with me and let me know what you think. Jesus tells us a parable in Matthew chapter 22 of the wedding feast. A king made a marriage for his son. Who is the bridegroom? Who is the bride? Who are the guests of the bridegroom?
In John 3:29, John the baptist says: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
Who is the bridegroom? Who is the bride? Who is the friend of the bridegroom?

This is not an attempt to try to "trip you up". Feel free to PM me about this if you like. I am very interested in your thoughts. You may be able to shed some light on this subject for me.

God bless good brother and many blessings!!!

 

Hey Outsider,

I trust you are well in the Lord, my brother, and God's grace and peace was with you all day long.

Quite a nice example. It explains your view well, and I thank you for it because I do wish to understand what another believes, even if I disagree with him or her.

Toward the bottom of your post you gave Ephesians 1 as the biblical text for categorical election (or so I think) which would be related to your own example here. I don't want to keep responding to with the same answer, but as I look at Ephesians I am having a hard time taking from the Scripture what your saying.

The Holy Spirit is speaking, without a doubt, to not just an individual, but to individuals. Now, these individuals make up a group. Which the Apostle calls "saints" and "the faithful in Christ Jesus." These are the same ones who are blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, accoding as he has chosen them before the foundation of the world. Now I recocognize that I am reading a translation of the Greek, namely the KJV, of the Bible. In the English I see a multitude of the us of pronouns. I see "us" "we" "ye" And I recall that a pronoun is a word used in the place of a noun, which is a person, place or thing. And, of course, in our text of Scripture is a person, or rather persons, who are the saints and the faithful of Jesus Christ.

Now, please do not read any condencending speech in me. I truly tried to see if your view was the proper one to take from Scripture. In your own explain of electing a people (those who would wear blue) the election is of wearing blue, and not of persons, individually speaking. To try to follow the text of Scripture with your example, it would have to read,

What is missing my brother, what I had to take out of the Scripture in trying to follow your explaination with it, are the pronouns. You see, the Scripture in Ephesians isn't saying that God chose blessings for believers. It is saying that He chose believers. "...he hath chosen US in Him before the foundation of the world." Now again to repeat a point, I find it totally impossible to choose a group without also choosing the individuals who make up that group. If God's predestination is what we should be (holy, without blame, adopted, et.) then we know His predetermination for them is from His foreknowledge of them, each and every one. So God's election of the elect is a choosing them for salvation that He would surely give to each one of them by His grace, freely and graciously, calling them by His Gospel and sanctifiing them by His Spirit.

To say it simply, taking your example and try to see if the Scripture matches it, or rather that your example matches the Scripture, shows that it doesn't line up.

Who can lay antying against the elect. eklektos as an adjective. The quality of being chosen, selected, set apart. And who/what is the word describing? It is not a what, but a who. The elect are saints, the faithful of Jesus Christ, believers. God elects persons in salvation. Election cannot be wrested from His foreknowledge and predestination. And if foreknowledge be of individuals then so must election.

Concerning Matthew 22, here is how I understand the parable: The king is God the Father. The bridegroom is the Son of God. The bride is the Church, all the elect of God chosen by the Father from the foundation of world. The servants are the ministers of the Gospel. And those bidden to come were the Jews, who also refused to come and treated the ministers of the Gospel spitefully, and persecuted them. The marriage feast, and all the good things described, is the ministry of the word, and of the ordinances, it is the eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of Christ (that is to say, coming and believing in Him), for all things are ready, that is, the cross is there and His resurrection is secure.

The Lord was angry, and sent his armies and destroyed the city, that is in 70AD when the armies of Titus raised Jerusalem to the ground. Then the Gospel is sent out to the highways and byways, that is to say, to the ends of the earth among all nations, tongues and peoples, and many were brought in to the house, the Church of the Living God, of both Jews and Gentiles. But among the invitees, or guests, are true and false brethren, wheat and tares, and the king comes in and finds them out, and one does not have a wedding garment, which only the bride is to wear, or else those who are of the wedding, which is the perfect righteousness of Christ given to all His elect.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

In John 3, here is how I understand the verse:

He that hath the bride is Christ. And the bride is all the elect of God, the Church. The friend of the bridegroom, here John the Baptist referes to himself, which is true of every true minister of the Gospel, who has been especially called of God to labor and work in the ministry, who serves the bride and is Christ's instrument to make ready. Which most aptly applies to this, the greatest of prophets, whose coming was prophesied to prepare the way of the Lord, and make His way ready, and why he came baptizing, the He should be made manifest to Israel.

 

ReformBaptist,

If I may, I think I can clear up Outsider's view a bit.

Actually, as you seem to notice, Ephesians is largely about the local church -- not individuals. Much of what I like about it has to do with the "unity chapter," Chapter 4. We'll see why this is a good example of the "elect" and not of individuals believers in a minute.

Not all of them. This is where the idea of election diverges from yours. In the local church, there are believers and unbelievers. In Ephesians, Paul addresses both together. It's like the "Parable of the Ten Virgins." Some are ready and some are not but they are all elect -- prospective brides.

This is not so. The "elect" are all the man's employees. The blue shirt is like offering Christ to each one of them. The ones that wear the shirts are believers/saved.

It is quite difficult to get Calvies to change their view of "election" after having looked at is so long as being "individualized." They can certainly grasp that God uses "elect" and "election" at times to designate groups like Israel but at other times, Calvies just go ahead and "break the rules" of application.

Here's another example: Read Rev 2-3. Do you believe that everyone in all these churches is saved? Read through and you will see they include believers and unbelievers --- they are a conglomeration of both existing in an "elect" body called the church much as Israel was a congregation of believing and unbelieving "elect" some of whom will NEVER be "holy, without blame, adopted, etc."

skypair

 

I'm going to get into this discusssion for one post, then get out. Others here are perfectly capable of having a fruitful discussion.

Brother Outsider, your blue shirt example is missing some elements necessary to make it a true analogy.

First, you are the boss, but you are not the equivalent of God.

Second, the true penalty for refusing to wear the blue shirt would be eternal separation from your company, not the denial of the bonus.

Third, you don't mention your equal partners or a role for them (as Son and Holy Spirit).

Fourth, you should know who will wear the blue shirt and who won't. Why spend money on shirts you know won't be needed?

Nice try, but no cigar this time.

 

Wow! I'm surprised you even offer one post when you so distort the "parable" as to make it unrecognizable to its author!

Here's the thing about a parable, Tommy -- its a way of teaching a spiritual truth through a perhaps inadequate, or incomplete as to details, earthly example.

Outsider offered the best parable I've read yet regarding the truth of election (the "Partner" is the "blue shirt" BTW -- refusing to wear is would NOT result in firing any more than you just warming your pew results in you being excommunicated -- he spends money on shirts he doesn't need because he is more like God than a "cheapskate" Calvie boss would be!! :laugh: With Outsider, EVERY person has a chance to get the bonus!)

skypair

 

Hey Skypair,

Thank you for your replies. I have had discussions with you in the past on these subjects and never saw much fruit from them. So, please don't misinterpret my non-reply to your posts to me, but I just don't how the Lord may be glorified by a discussion between you and I.

God bless.

RB

 

So God wouldn't be glorified by your responses? I am certain He is glorified in the truth, aren't you? In fact, Paul said he knew there were "schisms" among the Corinthians but this must be so so that 1Cor 11:19 -- "...they which are approved may be made manifest among you." You're basically telling me that I am "approved" then, eh? :jesus:

skypair

 

Thank you for replying. I hope this is not your one and only post on the subject. Any example will be flawed to some degree, after all, no one is equivalent to God. I was giving an illustration on the way I view the doctrine of election. Even at that, it could be a lot better but I hope you now understand what I was trying to accomplish.
I hope to hear more from you. God bless and many blessings!!!

 

Thanks for the kind words. As you have already pointed out. God prepared a way when there was no way. I believe He prepared that way for all who believe.
God bless and many blessings!!!

 

This is like a man telling me that if I will not argue with him then he has won the argument. lol

THis is what I seek to avoid, and have been unable to avoid with you in the past:

"For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:" 2 Cor 12:20

My past discussions with you have led to strife, contention, and wrangling which brings no profit to you, me, or the board.

 

Perhaps you do get the cigar. Your analogy reflects your view of election, and my critique reflected my view. I think your view is incomplete, but the analogy does appear to be consistent with it.

 

I think you did a great job Outsider of explaining "election" in a way, that even those who do not study very much, can understand. I like that, I try to preach my sermons that way, so as to be able to teach the whole house. Good Job,

BBob,

 

Brother RB,
I hope all is well and I really do appreciate you discussing these things for me. Also, thank you for giving me your understanding on the scriptures I asked for. You have shown to be truly blessed in the Word.

My wife says I drive her nuts with all my analogies. But when I preach, it helps me to convey the message I believe God has given me. So I want to throw another out for you. This one may be a little suprising, but it is truly the way I see it.

First, it is important to know that I am not trying to change you or anybody else. Only the Holy Spirit has that power and He will do it when and if He desires. God truly is a sovereign God and does things according to His will.

I believe we (Christians) are all called for a work in Christ. As I have mentioned in many posts, I used to be a 5 point calvinist and contrary to what many may think, I do not discard the doctrine. Here is why....

Suppose you and I were in the same room. We were focused on a flag that hangs from the ceiling. It is a flag that is striped with two colors, red and white. I may see the flag as being red with white stripes and you may see the flag as being white with red stripes. In this illustration, which of us is right and which of us is wrong? It is easy for us to see that we are both right and neither of us is wrong. The important thing is that we are both focused on the flag. The flag may be showing us its colors so we can work the way we were intended to work. The only way we can become in error is when we take our eyes of the flag and focus on our thoughts and understanding and begin to pronounce the other as being wrong. In this illustration, Christ is the flag.

When I study some of the old saints who preached many years ago, I find that Matthew Henry preached the gospel and stood for Christ. I also find that John Wesley preached the gospel and stood for Christ. They were both instruments that God used to bring many to Himself. Praise God!!!

When I started preaching, I believe God changed a lot of my views. I started seeing things in scripture in a way I never seen them before. I believe God called me to preach His gospel to the lost. He changed me and placed me in a position so I could do the work He called me to do.
If I were in another place (City, state, etc..) He may have strengthened my view of Calvinism because thats what He may have had me to do to reach people in that area. I do not try to examine why God does what He does, I just trust Him and try to obey His every Word.

This may not be acceptable for many, but it truly is the way I find it. I try not to profess one way to be in error and the other to be the only way. The one and true only way is Christ. I know we both agree on that.

I feel you and I have been able to let our guard down and examine scripture. We may not agree on every little point, but I have found that you do study the word and believe you to be a child of the King. That makes us brothers and I value your opinion. I never try to change people, I just give what I feel God has given me. I feel you have done the same. Neither of us has the power to change anyone, but by the Holy Spirit, we can show that there is harmony in the gospel of Christ.

BTW, I truly believe there are "elect" (As you see in scripture) and there are others that are not elect, but do come to Christ by drawing of the Holy Spirit. It is all under the foreknowledge of God, ofcourse. But that is another discussion - :laugh:

Also, I see you live in Georgia. I was in the Atlanta area in April. I attended the Alliance of evengelicals (sp?) conference. Yep, its a TULIP alliance - :laugh: . I had a great time.
Hope to talk with more soon. God bless and many blessings!!!

 

Thanks brother Bob. Coming from you this means a lot. I feel its what God gave me, so I tell it. As I know you feel the same.

God bless and many blessings!!!

 

Thank you brother Tom. I have a better view (More in detail view) of the way I see the election on my site (Blog) under "election" and "elect". I even have more anaolgies - :BangHead:
Feel free to check it out and I am always interested in other views and opinions.

Also, glad to see you make another post - :thumbs:

God bless and many blessings!!!

 

Outsider,

Based on this statement (and others):

I had a few questions:

1. Are you a universalist? By that I mean, do you believe ultimately everyone will be saved?

2. When you say you began to preach, does this mean you are a pastor/elder in a church? If so, which one?

3. Do believe in absolute truth?

 

I feel very stupid in asking, but if you don't ask you won't know. What is absolute truth?