"the Christ" in the KJV

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Michelle, why did the KJV translators CHANGE "in" to "with"? Was "in" wrong?
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As it is EVIDENCED God corrected this - yes, and with understanding the scripture properly (in the Spirit of Truth), absolutley yes.

Yes absolutely "in" is wrong in this passage. If you take the focus off from the word "water" you might then understand why. This has NOTHING TO DO
WHATSOEVER WITH WATER SPRINKLING EITHER. It is only men's feeble attempts to say God's word is in error because of lack of understanding the truth in the scriptures.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

True to KJVO form, they always seem to get around to this.

HankD

 

I guess you failed to see the point that before English there was not a KJV. But the believers had a Bible and some translations too.

 

It is the focus. Especially the preposition used in the "pure" koine Greek as opposed to the KJV translators English mis-translation of this pure Word of God.

But what is to be expected, they were commissioned by King James who had a definite dislike for ana-baptists.

HankD

 

Kind of sounds like a god above all gods with such certainty and knowledge. Must be God to say such things under inspiration. But I wonder who's inspiration.

 

True to KJVO form, they always seem to get around to this.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry I missed that Hank - I can't get my "edit" feature to work at the moment to snip that from the post. It is indeed against board policy to questions one's salvation.

 

Leave it. I know whom I have believed.

HankD

 

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To summarise a minority point of view being expressed here:

If you present an argument I don't like it is
irrelelvent.
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I gave scriptural proof to why it is irrelevent along with the reasons. Everyone who has eyes to see and understands the truth will see it.

2 Tim. 2:22-26

I also give you now:

Titus 3

9. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


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If you don't get what I get from the Bible you don't understand.
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If you deny the Bible and the scripture truths in them in the first place, you don't and can't understand.

1 Cor.2

10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


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If you disagree with me it is because you are biased.
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If you disagree and argue with God and his words of truth, you lack in understanding.

Mark 12

28. And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luke 24
44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Romans 1
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1 Cor. 1
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Eph.4
11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18. Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19. Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But ye have not so learned Christ;
21. If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22. That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23. And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Eph.5
6. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9. (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10. Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Colossians 2

1. For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2. That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3. In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
5. For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6. As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7. Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


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If you would let God spek to you you would agree with me.
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John 16


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

See - I did a good summary didn't I ?

 

No you wouldn't. In another thread, you claimed that Ransom was either lying or else using the wrong text concerning the definite article "the" being in the TR but not translated by the KJV translators in "the Christ".

He and I both gave specific citations of incontrovertible evidence that you were wrong. I challenged you several times to admit you were wrong and apologize. I am all but sure that you saw these challenges but in case you didn't, you can prove yourself by apologizing publicly to Ransom now for wrongly accusing him of lying.

No. We are proving that YOU are wrong... and YOU (even considering how highly you deem your own unsubstantiated opinion) are not God.

No- just to state the obvious. He is saying that the KJV is wrong because it did not at this point translate the text from that it came from as accurately as possible.

 

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It is the focus. Especially the preposition used in the "pure" koine Greek as opposed to the KJV translators English mis-translation of this pure Word of God.
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You are wrong Hank. This verse of scripture is not focusing upon the word "water". I do not need to, nor can I go to the "greek" to understand this - The Holy Spirit of Truth gives me understanding. God has provided this in English already for us and has given generations of Baptists believers, including myself, the proper understanding of this verse. It seems that you have gone to the uneccessary task of learning greek (like you know better than God), in order to find errors, that do not exist, and twist the truth of the scriptures because of your doubt about it in the first place.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

If you have a spirit that is telling you something that disagrees with what God the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to write then it is a lying spirit.

The reason you have a proper understanding of this verse is that someone, at some point, possessed enough scholarship to dig out the proper meaning of this verse and teach it to someone who taught it to someone who taught it to someone.... who taught it to you.

The KJV's "with" can only mean immersion if you read between the lines and around possible bias by the translators. The fact that at some point one of the teachers in the line that taught you failed to point out this mistranslation in the KJV does not change the meaning of words.

Baptize means to immerse Michelle. I hope you know that. A person is not immersed "with" something but rather "in" something.

Are you now making yourself the judge of God's wisdom in choosing Greek to inspire the NT in? It is you that presumes to know better than God. You don't like the way He preserved His Word so instead of just accepting what He did, you now question someone who has put NECESSARY effort into learning the divinely chosen language of the NT.

You mean that you have chosen not to see.

To you and those like you 42 is the same as 22. In KJVO logic, I guess that makes perfect sense.

To you Psalm 12:6-7 by absolute necessity refers to the KJV and only to the KJV in English even though nothing in the text indicates that it does.

Michelle, You have most recently gotten in the habit of posting long passages of scripture that have nothing to do with the KJV translation of the Bible with the pompous attitude that if we don't see how they obviously prove your point then we aren't spiritual or perhaps even saved.

You are the one who is twisting scripture and trying to force it to say something that it doesn't say. It is you that avoids the truth of the rebuttals given against your arguments. It is you that has falsely accused a brother and have refused to repent.

I don't think Hank doubts God or His Word and I know that I don't. We simply reject your false teaching because it does not follow scripture, logic, nor historical/evidential facts.

2 Peter and other sections of scripture tie knowledge to spiritual maturity. Knowledge starts by fearing the Lord and recognizing our lack of knowledge.

You cannot predetermine what you are willing to believe and then have any chance of learning the truth. But that is what you've done.

You cannot decide what God must have done since it is the method that makes sense to you. But you've done that also.

 

There are no errors in the Word of God. Scribes and translators introduce human error into the text.
I tried to show you a poor choice on the part of the KJV translators because of their heretical theology but you have made it perfectly clear by innuendo:

Main Entry: in·nu·en·do
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -dos or -does
Etymology: Latin, by nodding, from innuere to nod to, make a sign to, from in- + nuere to nod; akin to Latin nutare to nod -- more at NUMEN
1 a : an oblique allusion : HINT, INSINUATION; especially : a veiled or equivocal reflection on character or reputation b : the use of such allusions &lt;resorting to innuendo&gt;

Merriam-Webster online found at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=innuendo

accusations that you are spiritually far superior than we are. That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion.


You also said:

Here is another area of the Church of England influence on the 1611AV:


KJV 1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Tell me michelle, does the office of bishop exist in your local Baptist Church or any of the "generations of Baptist believers" you mentioned?

If not, why not?

Might I remind you that (in your own words) you do not need the Greek to understand a passage of Scripture.

HankD

 

Michelle:Your belief that God did not promise to preserve his pure words, for every generation of the faithful is the denial of the truth (and overall truth regarding this issue given in the scriptures) in the scriptures and the EVIDENCE of this truth.

What we deny...because it's been PROVEN...is the notion that Psalm 12:7 is about God's word. Both the Geneva Bible translators and the AV translators said as much, the GB men in their text and the AV men in their note. However, every Christian believes God has preserved His word.

As for every generation...Tyndales & Coverdale's Bibles were among those versions which served several generations in the 1500s, the Geneva and Bishop's Bibles served several later generations, the various KJV editions served quite a few more, and the RV, ASV/NASB, NIV, & NKJV are among those serving today's generation as well as the older ones when used.


The EVIDENCE: - our Holy Bible the scriptures, the very pure words of God in English and for generations of the faithful, that has been labeled in recent years as the KJV.

The KJV is in itself not evidence.

The evidence is the whole collection of English-language Bibles from Caedmon's day till now.

 

C4K:Can't you folks grasp this:

The heretical beliefs of the KJV translators mean nothing.
The heretical beliefs of the MV translators mean something.

Can't you understand that?
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Michelle:If many of you UNDERSTOOD this point being made and the issue we are discussing, we might not be having this debate.

The point is quite clear...you don't believe that any English BV that differe from the KJV is correct, while WE KNOW BETTER. You proved this just yesterday over Psalm 12:7 when I posted that the GB renders "him" while the AV renders "them", but with a marginal note explaining that in their opinions the most correct translation of the Hebrew was "him"...and you tried to tell me that GOD chose "them" over "him". Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?

AND...you claimed I made a certain statement, & I challenged you to find it in any board on the Net, cut, & paste it. You've had plenty of time to do it, Michelle, and this issue is NOT gonna go away until you either post the statement, or admit you were wrong. until then, you make yourself a LIAR by your own actions/inactions.

IT'S NOT GONNA GO AWAY, MICHELLE!

 

Michelle:You might better understand what it is I said regarding this issue by going back to those posts that I wrote and really TRY to understand what it was that I was saying. And "the Christ" is a New Age term, used by New Agers. Don't take my word for it, reasearch this yourself.

OK, here ya go.......................

...................FROM THE KJV............

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Matthew 26:63
But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 8:29
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Mark 14:61
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Luke 3:15
And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

Luke 9:20
He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Luke 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

John 1:20
And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 1:41
He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

John 3:28
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

John 4:29
Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 7:41
Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?

John 10:24
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

John 11:27
She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

|OH, THOSE NASTY OLE NEW AGE AV TRANSLATORS ! !

 

hank D:There are two problems of translation concerning baptism in this passage.
The word ?with? in the original is en. Should be - ?I indeed baptize you IN water? It doesn?t take the proverbial rocket scientist to see why the pado-baptists sprinklers prefer the instrumental preposition with over the locational in
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Michelle:Because you lack understanding of this scripture does not indicate error.


Looks as if HE understands it pretty well, and YOU don't.


I can't help you to understand this scripture. You &lt;attack snipped&gt;, and ask the Lord to give you the meaning of this scripture.

It appears He has, by giving Hank access to, and understanding of the Greek, from which our English versions of the NT are made.


Because you have lacked the understanding in this, you have turned to your "own mind" and the "wisdom of men" in order for you to come to an understanding that is outside the truth, and then have the NERVE to say this is an error.

Actually, he has the nerve to post the correct translation of the Greek into English.


Shame on you. You should very well KNOW the meaning of this scripture if you KNOW the Lord.

Hmmm....been reading Ruckman again?

Looks as if he DOES know the meaning of this Scripture...in both Greek and English.

 

Michelle:If I was wrong I would admit to it and repent for it.

That would be a first for you, admitting it, that is.(The repenting is between you and God, and doesn't concern us.) You've been PROVEN wrong many times and you have yet to admit it. You've just been proven wrong in your saying "the Christ" is a New-Age term, but you prolly won't admit that, either.


You are saying God is wrong.

No, he's saying an AV translator was wrong.


You are the one who is wrong, and you need to repent of it. You are saying that the truth of God in this passage is error, because you lack understanding of it.

Seems he understands both the Greek and the English pretty well.


This is a shame to you. Please repent of this, so that you may see it.

What should he repent of? Being correct in his words concerning the Greek, or for proving you wrong? Seems you've struck out from both sides of the plate.


Clue: you might not want to make the word "water" your focus of attention.

He didn't; he focused on "in".

 

I think this is michelles way of saying goodbye.

HankD